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I got hit by the KDP

5K views 29 replies 17 participants last post by  moparguy55 
#1 · (Edited)
A few weeks ago I did an oil change and noticed way more than the usual amount of oil on the engine block. I thought oh great I finally need to replace the seal on the timing case cover. At that point I had never heard of KDP. I took the truck on a 90 mile trip and figured I better check the oil when I got there. Holy crap, took 3 quarts. Now I really have to get that leak taken care of. I picked up my load and went home, used another 3 quarts. So, I call a local respected diesel mechanic and he said to bring it over to look at. When I got there he was talking to someone so I opened the hood and just started looking around. Wow, I finally noticed the chunk of the timing case that was missing, a full 3 inches long hunk right on the top. Oil flying out off the top gear. The mechanic finally got to me and said that I better not drive it at all. Whatever took that hunk out could still be in there.

From what I hear I was lucky that I didn't have more damage. The pin had hit the timing case in several places before it busted out the top. No damage to any of the gears.

Why on earth has there not been a recall on this problem? I could see this being a safety issue going down the interstate at 70 and you engine locks up. Wow, not pretty. I never even got any warning letter from Cummins or Dodge. In fact the service person I talked to at or local Dodge dealer pretended he had never heard about it.

Is there any chance that either Dodge or Cummins will fork out for part of the repair cost? I am at 215K miles, so long out of warranty.
 
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#4 ·
engine could lock up if the dowl pin rode the gear around and jammed between the crank and cam gear, blowing the cam gear off the end of the cam, stopping the camshaft, leaving some valves open, allowing the pistons to hit them causing the engine to come to a fairly loud and almost sudden stop.
 
#5 ·
I just, and I mean JUST got done fixing KDP damage on a customers truck yesterday. Took about 13 hrs total, but I also took my time and actually retimed his injector pump...... I didn't use the timing pin, but used the valve drop method so it took a little longer, but is more accurate. Plus cleaned a bunch of grease and oil off the motor, and some other little bits.....
 
#6 ·
Sorry to hear...especially on Christmas.

I agree with you, there indeed should have been a mandated recall by Dodge on the KDP design flaw. Bill, the mechanically savvy Montana rancher and forum moderator, explained some time ago that recalls are only mandated for safety related issues. Apparently, being left on the side of the road with a blown engine and dumbfoundedly staring at a puddle of oil under your truck does not qualify as a safety related issue.

At a minimum, at least a service bulletin should have been issued. Just like with the nasty case of food poisoning my daughter and I got eating tainted hot dogs last week at Costco, "Prove it if you can" is unfortunately the only response from many large corporations today.

The good news is, with the many capable fellas on this Cummins group site, you'll be able to get your truck back on the road. Search a post most recently from another young man struck by the KDP who was able to do his own repairs with the help of many members. Good luck!
 
#7 ·
#9 ·
If cummins doesn't think they have a problem then why would they change the timing gear case casting to correct the problem? They built a little ring at the outer part of the casting hole so the pin cannot go through it any longer. Ya, they know what they are doing to avoid problems. Someone ought to start a class action law suit against them.

Also, the supplier had 4 of this particular timing gear cases in stock. Seems to me they have plenty of problems with that case. Mine also had an old crack about 1/3 way up the top side that was causing a small leak for the last year or so.

Deerefanatic, did that 13 hours include having to change out the whole timing gear case? I know my mechanic is going to be over double that. He pulled the engine because I also had oil leaks along the drivers side of the engine, block heater needed replacement, starter rebuild, oil pan leak, tranny filter and oil change, leak between the tranny and transfer case, noisy power steering pump to check out.
 
#10 ·
Deerefanatic, did that 13 hours include having to change out the whole timing gear case? I know my mechanic is going to be over double that. He pulled the engine because I also had oil leaks along the drivers side of the engine, block heater needed replacement, starter rebuild, oil pan leak, tranny filter and oil change, leak between the tranny and transfer case, noisy power steering pump to check out.

He pulled the motor for that??? Time for a new mechanic....
 
#11 ·
Yah, for sure.... Doesn't need to pull for that...... I suppose though if he pulled the engine and tranny as a unit, it "may" have not taken any longer and it would be a heck of alot easier........

Yah, 13 hours start to finish on the job.. Included completely replacing the gear case, timing the IP, and degreasing the engine.
 
#12 ·
just finished repairing the carnage from the kdp a few hours ago (posted a thread on a timing issue on this thread if you guys can spare a moment, but I digress)

First off, it sucks. A lot. But I don't regret it too much. Got the engine cleaned up and now I know more about my engine than I thought I could!

Secondly and most important gonorth, if you decided to replace the case with a new one instead of searching for used, give PTC power a shot. They were priced low enough that I was concerned about quality. After several phone calls and emails I bit the bullet and ordered it. $148 for the part and and $40 for shipping! the next was $289 with no shipping costs counted in.

If you have any questions feel free to message me. These guys are great but at times I felt like no matter how much the dumbed it down for me I still got confused. So if you feel uncomfortable about something ask away. No wrong questions!

Happy wrenching.
 
#13 ·
happened to me few years ago . i was just leaving stop light sound like i blew a tire.pulled over looked at tires noticed oil pouring out.drove across town to shop.we seen problem he cant fix it added few quart oil went other side town.they didnt know what they doing butt fixed it .few days later 1200$ got er back .heard humming / rubbing sound.put hand on oil fill tube .i felt it was comming from there.took it back to shop they said 1200$ more the new gear they put on cracked and walking back and forth on shaft hiting gear cover.i argued ended up giving 400$ more to them for another gear.took truck and gear to friend shop with his help tore down .heated gear beat on.did not go all way on.put back to gether...very bad experiance for me
 
#14 ·
Wish I knew

Deerefanatic, I sure wish I knew about you a month ago. I am up at Hayward a lot so you are almost a neighbor. Then again, not sure I would have driven the truck that far not knowing that the KDP already went out with the chunk of the case and the gears were ok.

Russian good tip but too late. New gear case is already bolted on the block.
 
#15 ·
I am siting here reading this again and I look up and at the top of the screen is an ad that says:

"Nothing stops a Ram" (Except for a KDP)

Went to the Dodge dealer again with my VIN number in hand. Asked him to check for any recalls or Tech bulletins regarding KDP's. Nothing on record. That really ticks me off. I'd like to use a few stronger words in that last sentence that the moderators probably would not like.
 
#16 ·
I feel your pain. I just went through the same thing a couple of months ago. At least you can claim ignorance to the kdp problem. I knew about it, but was too lazy to do the preventative repair before it got me.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/9...stons-97-dodge-ram-3500-ctd-build-thread.html

deerfanatic, that's pretty amazing that you were able to do the repair in 13 hours. My repair took MUCH longer. I'm sure now that I have done it once, I could do it much faster, but I sure hope I never have to.
 
#17 ·

At a minimum, at least a service bulletin should have been issued
Don't know about Dodge but Cummins issued a TSB, sells a tab washer and a cam gear puller designed to pull the gear without removing the radiator.
There's no doubt they know fully about the problem.

I wouldn't even consider replacing the case with the old take everything apart method, pulling the cam gear makes the job so much easier.
Takes me about 3-4 hours.
 
#18 ·
Cummins...sells a tab washer and a cam gear puller designed to pull the gear without removing the radiator.
Do you know the part number for the puller Bill? I gotta replace my housing for other reasons, would be handy to have that puller I feel.
 
#20 ·
I just sent the following to Cummins via their internet customer assistance.
We'll see what if any answer I get from them.

----------------------------

Sorry I don't have my engine serial number as the truck is still in the shop, going on 3 weeks now. My 97 Dodge serial number is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My Cummins started loosing a lot of oil. It was caused by the upper timing case dowel pin falling out. Then flying around in the gear case making several nicks in the aluminum case. Finally it blew out with a 3 inch chunk of the top of the gear case.

I started researching the problem on the internet. Low and behold it sounds like this is a common problem with this engine. One for which you even provide a part to prevent the pin from falling out. You even changed the case casting to prevent the problem once the orignal case blows up and gets replaced.

It sounds like my repair is going to be VERY expensive. Not the sort of thing I would expect out of a Cummins engine. What blows me away even more is that I have never gotten any sort of warning from either Cummins or Dodge. It makes me mad to know that you just left us hanging out there exposed to a potentially fatal crash due to the potential of this pin locking up the gears and consequently the engine at highway speeds. Or best case like mine where the pin (hopefully) did not do any internal damage to the engine. You can read more about my breakdown at this forum:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-powertrain/350407-i-got-hit-kdp-2.html

I would like to hear your reasons for not working with Dodge or on your own to issue a recall or at least a service warning to the vehicle owners that are exposed to this problem.

Second I would like to know if you or Dodge will reimburse me for the expense of replacing the timing gear case and any other secondary problems that might still arise from this pin failure.

Sincerly, a no longer so happy Cummins owner
 
#21 ·
If you were/are the original owner you might get an apologetic letter (don't hold your breath). Otherwise, just like myself and many others on here who got hit by the KDP, you'll have to forget the 400-500 dollars for parts (assuming only your case broke), count your loses, and just move on. Not to be calloused (I was pretty irked when it happened to me 3 weeks ago), but that is how it is. Thirteen year old vehicle, can't expect much.
 
#22 ·
I used to have a copy of the apologetic form letter they will send you but it must have gone away about three computers ago.

Basically they will tell you very low incidence of failure, blah, blah, blah and sorry you're out of luck.
 
#23 ·
thats a crock very low incidence of failure... mine has 300,000K on it and i tabbed the KDP the otherday and it was just barely hanging in there. i could have pulled it out with almost no effort with a pair of pliars.
 
#24 ·
I bet it is close to the point where most of these trucks that have not had the upgrade done have already lost their dowel pin. Just fell out and found it's way to the oil pan without any damage done. Has anyone gone in to do the preventative fix and found the pin simply 'missing'?

Well, I got my truck back and the bill a few weeks ago. That was the biggest sticker shock I ever had.

Original estimate to just replace the broken timeing case was $3000. That assumed no gear damage which there wasn't. But, somehow that estimate was way off and along the way more work became apparent.

Rebuild starter and alternator, replaced tranny with a rebuilt one (shavings and snap ring pieces laying on filter), new water pump, new PS pump, relay for air intake heater, new block heater, new oil seals in engine, tranny, and transfer case, new dip stick tube, radiator hoses, lots of small parts, gaskets, and seals. Total bill would have been around $14K but he discounted labor right off the bat and set the price at around $12K. So, I am thinking the tranny and other additional work was probably $4500 and the original KDP estimate of $3000 so I was expecting $7500-ish for a bill. He said his original estimate was way off and he eventually knocked quite a bit more off the $12,000 bill to the point where I was satisfied.

But, I do have a nice clean engine and undercarriage now. Even before the KDP I had oil leaking in so many places that I was surprised I passed my DOT inspection last summer.
 
#27 ·
I bet it is close to the point where most of these trucks that have not had the upgrade done have already lost their dowel pin.
No way.
There are people buying these trucks used with less than 100k or even 50k miles on them.
I've personally seen damage on a engine with 345k miles.
 
#28 ·
Yes, I we talked and I did authorize all the extra stuff. The thing that got me is I didn't know the tranny was bad until after all the dowel pin work was done. If I had gone into this knowing the engine and tranny were bad I probably would not have done it.

I ended up paying what his original estimate was for replacement of the timing gear case plus the extra work that was done.

Yes I do love that truck, hard to find one of these with an automatic, long box, and extended cab.
 
#30 ·
Not to throw salt in the wound, but I picked my 97 sport ECLB 4x4 auto fully loaded 156k miles with a 8.5 foot meyer plow for $6k from the original owner. For 12k you could have bought a realllly nice 98 grail truck.

Around here the older trucks are not bringing the money they used to. When they are selling 03 4x4 common rails for 10-13k it leaves the 12V's in the 5-8k range. Yes the 12v is way more reliable and a workhorse than a newer truck,b ut it takes a buyer that has done his homework. The average joe thinks the newer truck for slightly more $$ is the way to go.
 
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