dealership claims injector pump timing failure but have good lift pump pressure

ramblin_man · 08-23-2008, 12:09 AM

I already have a thread which details the problems I was having with my 02 2500 Diesel 5.9 24 valve, manual tranny, 2nd gen body style truck with 66k. (Called Bad bogging/hesitation). My symptoms have been: I crank it up in the morning and get white smoke with poor acceleration for about a mile. Then it clears up and the engine runs normal the rest of the day. During poor acceleration I can push the petal to the floor - there is no difference, the truck slowly accelerates. This does not happen every time I crank. I was given advice to lubricate the waste gate since my lift pump pressure gauge was not indicating any pressure failure. I did do this and it did seem to clear up my problem initially. After about a month, the problem kept reoccurring. I even put nut buster on it to no avail. In the process, I washed the engine compartment and after cranking up, I had terrible rumbling from the engine which vibrated the entire truck. I was blowing a massive amount of white smoke out the exhaust. I finally took the waste gate assembly apart and checked it - it was opening without problems. I put it all back together, I drove it and had no incidents that night. The next day I had the rumbling again and major smoke. I decided that I had to break down and take it to Dodge. I made an appointment to go the Dodge today. Ironically it cranked fine and drove great all the way to the dealership. They put it on the computer, and they claim that it is indicating a code which is injector pump timing failure....and so they say my lift pump is not putting out enough flow. They say it needs to be replaced inside the fuel tank and the injector pump must be replaced too. I told them that I have good lift pump pressure . They claimed up and down that despite having a fuel pressure gauge, that meant nothing - it was all about the flow. How can you have flow without pressure? I have never had low lift pump pressure. I hang out at around 12 when I drive, 13 while idling, about 11 on acceleration. My fuel mileage remains the same as it has always been. I don't trust what they are telling me. They want me to fork over $4000.00 to do the repairs they indicate. I asked them if it could possibly be the breather, but they blew me off. Some of my friends who have diesels are mentioning it might be the turbo. Unfortunately there is no other Dodge dealer in this town to go and get a second opinion. I don't have a code indicator on my truck, so there is no way for me to check if indeed they are telling me a correct code. The fact that a salesman told me that they are getting rid of their o8's at invoice minus rebates which amounted to about 12,000$ off - so most who were getting major repairs were just opting to trade in - and thay anyone who got their old Dodges repaired were making a bad financial decision - does not instill confidence in me that they don't just want to pump up maintenance costs to cover slow sales and/or force a trade in on major repairs. Can anyone help me? I am pretty much stranded here in Montrose, CO until I get a handle on this and get whatever is wrong fixed.

***dkletti8*** · 08-23-2008, 09:47 AM

Did you try to cycle your key switch to get the codes?

__________________
02 2500 4x4 5.9HO 6 speed 4"mbrp straight pipe Diablosport Powerpuck BHAF silencer ring mia moon visor sprayed liner
52 Power Wagon all stock

ramblin_man · 08-23-2008, 10:39 AM

I got the codes this morning:
P PCU
1693
P DONE
216
P DONE

02isb · 08-23-2008, 12:19 PM

sounds like you could do the vp yourdelf and save at least 2k. pretty sure code p216 is bad pump.

__________________
02 2wd club cab,short bed auto. custom bahf (kn) and mounting tray heat shield, mprb 4" and airdog 100,silencer ring removed,adrenaline with pulse

jcarrillo · 08-23-2008, 01:15 PM

I have a similar situation with my '02. It acts up when it is cold or when i drive around 55mph for a while . when it is cold i cycle the key while i am driving and it comes back to life. I have been able to get by like this for several months. It is a little inconvenient but I have offset $1200 pump for a while. By the way my fuel pressure is good too. Not quite as good as yours but acceptable non the less. If you need time to save for a pump it may be an option.

ramblin_man · 08-23-2008, 01:31 PM

Oh it is so wonderful to know someone else out there is having the same exact symptoms AND HAS A Lift PUMP WHICH IS REGISTERING PRESSURE! I have been referred to a site which has a complete diagnostic rundown in order to identify exactly what is failing and is not failing in association with the injector pump including the lift pump: VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP
I have a lot of work ahead of me and at least like you stated, I CAN drive despite the annoyances. I am stuck here however till I get this fixed because there is no way I am going over a Rocky Mountain Pass with these symptoms....plus I need a campground which will allow repairs - so far this one I am at has been understanding. Grand Junction has more services by far, but I don't want to chance towing my "home" in this condition even thought I am still making it down the road with less symptoms towing than not towing. I have to go and get my DTC code reading at an autoparts store yet today and take it all from there.

Last edited by ramblin_man : 08-23-2008 at 01:46 PM.

ramblin_man · 08-24-2008, 01:16 AM

A review of VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP , a trip to Autozone and Walmart raise the following questions I would like to get some opinions on before I undertake exhaustive diagnostic tests and repair in a campground

I need to know the following before I undergo a lift pump diagnosis of the pressure between the fuel filter and the injector pump:
What is the proper way to fit the fuel pressure gauge? To the pressure fitting on the fuel fitting which inserts into the high pressure pump OR to the metal fuel lines between the filter and the high pressure pump?

The code readout from the Autozone scanner read as follows:
1. 216: injector timing control circuit malfunction
2. 216 pending: injection timing control circuit malfunction

Their computer's diagnosis was replacement of the FUEL INJECTION MANAGEMENT SYSTEM. We were told by the technician that this was the computer brain on the injector pump. This was an indication that the injectors are not getting the fuel at the right time. He said that he did not think that the injector pump itself was failing since when this happens other codes would be coming up for massive malfunction. The technician said it is possible to get a calibrated computer component to reinstall on the injector pump BUT that this can only be ordered from Dodge.

According to VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP under DEAD PETAL "This symptom is usually caused by either a faulty APPS [no codes so not the culprit] or a faulty computer on the top of the VP44....intermittent 'Dead Pedal' and no codes, YOU NEED AN INJECTION PUMP!"HARD START HOT OR COLD "If the truck......shows white smoke on start up, your problem is the computer on the top of the injection pump. This component cannot be replaced in the field as it has to be programmed and calibrated to the mechanical part of the VP44. You have to buy a replacement VP44 injection pump to correct this problem". ROUGH IDLE OR MISS AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS LIGHT THROTTLE " This is always the computer on the top of the injection pump, as long as there is APPROPRIATE LIFT PUMP PRESSUREand no codes pertaining to [etc.,etc.,]......you know what a bad computer means: REPLACE THE VP44!

So which is it? Can the computer be replaced or does the entire injector pump have to be replaced because the computer cannot be replaced once it leaves the factory?

If I have to replace the whole unit, does anyone know if any special tools are required? Should I purchase the Dodge technical repair book for my model to assist with the repair? It has also been suggested to me to try to find a Cummings repair mechanic not associated with Dodge if possible in case I get in a bind......I will tell you this - repairing aircraft engines is much easier to deal with than all of this!

Ironically I stopped at Walmart afterward where I met a Diesel mechanic on heavy machinery. He also indicated that the computer component could be replaced. His son repairs the diagnostic scanners used to read our codes and so he suggested completely disconnecting the battery from the terminal in order to reset the computer - in case this solves the problem. In his experience this works if the computer is not toast.

So right now I myself feel like toast. I have disconnected the battery from all terminals and am going to let it go till tomorrow when I hope to review any advice posted.....which I badly need.

Mike516882 · 08-24-2008, 02:04 AM

p0216 is the Vp44 Death code...Its time to start hitting up the venders on the forum for some prices!!

Mike

__________________
2000 QCSB,Green,47RE, 4x4,4.10's, Leveling kit, 315/75/16 Mud Rovers on DC-1 Blacks, Fass150, Draw Straw II, Nano-4510,150hp Sticks, Edge Comp, Billet Converter, Custom Valve Body, The Important Gauges. SINGLE 6" Miter

Mike516882 · 08-24-2008, 02:05 AM

btw i got a new VP44 put in for a reaaaallllly goood price at DPS

__________________
2000 QCSB,Green,47RE, 4x4,4.10's, Leveling kit, 315/75/16 Mud Rovers on DC-1 Blacks, Fass150, Draw Straw II, Nano-4510,150hp Sticks, Edge Comp, Billet Converter, Custom Valve Body, The Important Gauges. SINGLE 6" Miter

dieseltracks · 08-24-2008, 02:18 AM

As Mike stated, the 0216 code usually means that the VP44 is on it's last leg. Unhooking the battery cables and clearing the code will do nothing to help the problem if the VP is on it's last leg, Sorry.

To answer 1 of your questions, NO, the electronics CANNOT be replaced individually on the VP44. The whole IP must be replaced.
Even though you have good fuel pressure, that doesn't always ensure that your VP44 will live a long life. Unfortunately, sometimes it's just luck of the draw with the VP44.
There is a write-up on here somewhere with video that explains how to change the VP44 pump, I'll try to find the link for you.
I'll get back to you.
Here's one. Click on the links in this thread (video). vp44 tools and replacement
Here's another. Basically the same thing without the video. VP-44 R&R....its not that hard!!!!
This one could come in handy. VP44 - Gear Pulling Method
And 1 more. CumminsDatabase.com :: Bosch VP44 Fuel Injection Pump Replacement

That oughta keep ya busy for awhile.

__________________
2002 2500 QC LONG BED 4x4--AUTO--ICEBOX w/S&B FILTER--HOLLEY RED w/IN-TANK PUMP--HX35--BD 3-PIECE PORTED MANIFOLD--4"EXHAUST--HUSHPOWER MUFFLER--COBALT PYRO/BOOST/TRANS/FUEL PRESS.--BILSTEIN HD's--DAYTON TIMBERLINE M/T's 285/75/16..............On it's way.............Goerend TC and VB

Last edited by dieseltracks : 08-24-2008 at 02:44 AM. Reason: added link

96ram1500 · 08-24-2008, 07:57 AM

Check the classifieds on this forum. I saw a vp for 700. Very good deal. He says it was never installed because he just sold the truck and didn't need it.

ramblin_man · 08-24-2008, 11:42 AM

Thanks SO MUCH! (By the way, I would like to say hi - I'm tater_chip, ramblin_man's right hand gal of 20 years. I write all this stuff up for him and will be assisting in the repairs. FUN, FUN, FUN!) I really want to thank EVERYONE for their input and support. We are going to go over all the info you have provided so graciously to us and will let you know what transpires. I guess we will have to break down and face it - our IP is dieing. That is a major bummer at 66K with a lift pump pressure monitor installed to try to bypass this expensive repair........WHICH WILL HAVE TO TAKE PLACE IN A CAMPGROUND! no comfy garage. But after our own Dodge experience, there is little other alternative.

08-23-2008, 12:09 AM	#1 (permalink)
ramblin_man Cummins Fan Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: full time RVer Posts: 30 ramblin_man's Truck Pics	dealership claims injector pump timing failure but have good lift pump pressure I already have a thread which details the problems I was having with my 02 2500 Diesel 5.9 24 valve, manual tranny, 2nd gen body style truck with 66k. (Called Bad bogging/hesitation). My symptoms have been: I crank it up in the morning and get white smoke with poor acceleration for about a mile. Then it clears up and the engine runs normal the rest of the day. During poor acceleration I can push the petal to the floor - there is no difference, the truck slowly accelerates. This does not happen every time I crank. I was given advice to lubricate the waste gate since my lift pump pressure gauge was not indicating any pressure failure. I did do this and it did seem to clear up my problem initially. After about a month, the problem kept reoccurring. I even put nut buster on it to no avail. In the process, I washed the engine compartment and after cranking up, I had terrible rumbling from the engine which vibrated the entire truck. I was blowing a massive amount of white smoke out the exhaust. I finally took the waste gate assembly apart and checked it - it was opening without problems. I put it all back together, I drove it and had no incidents that night. The next day I had the rumbling again and major smoke. I decided that I had to break down and take it to Dodge. I made an appointment to go the Dodge today. Ironically it cranked fine and drove great all the way to the dealership. They put it on the computer, and they claim that it is indicating a code which is injector pump timing failure....and so they say my lift pump is not putting out enough flow. They say it needs to be replaced inside the fuel tank and the injector pump must be replaced too. I told them that I have good lift pump pressure . They claimed up and down that despite having a fuel pressure gauge, that meant nothing - it was all about the flow. How can you have flow without pressure? I have never had low lift pump pressure. I hang out at around 12 when I drive, 13 while idling, about 11 on acceleration. My fuel mileage remains the same as it has always been. I don't trust what they are telling me. They want me to fork over $4000.00 to do the repairs they indicate. I asked them if it could possibly be the breather, but they blew me off. Some of my friends who have diesels are mentioning it might be the turbo. Unfortunately there is no other Dodge dealer in this town to go and get a second opinion. I don't have a code indicator on my truck, so there is no way for me to check if indeed they are telling me a correct code. The fact that a salesman told me that they are getting rid of their o8's at invoice minus rebates which amounted to about 12,000$ off - so most who were getting major repairs were just opting to trade in - and thay anyone who got their old Dodges repaired were making a bad financial decision - does not instill confidence in me that they don't just want to pump up maintenance costs to cover slow sales and/or force a trade in on major repairs. Can anyone help me? I am pretty much stranded here in Montrose, CO until I get a handle on this and get whatever is wrong fixed.

08-23-2008, 10:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
ramblin_man Cummins Fan Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: full time RVer Posts: 30 ramblin_man's Truck Pics	got the codes I got the codes this morning: P PCU 1693 P DONE 216 P DONE

08-24-2008, 01:16 AM	#7 (permalink)
ramblin_man Cummins Fan Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: full time RVer Posts: 30 ramblin_man's Truck Pics	research raised the following questions: A review of VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP , a trip to Autozone and Walmart raise the following questions I would like to get some opinions on before I undertake exhaustive diagnostic tests and repair in a campground I need to know the following before I undergo a lift pump diagnosis of the pressure between the fuel filter and the injector pump: What is the proper way to fit the fuel pressure gauge? To the pressure fitting on the fuel fitting which inserts into the high pressure pump OR to the metal fuel lines between the filter and the high pressure pump? The code readout from the Autozone scanner read as follows: 1. 216: injector timing control circuit malfunction 2. 216 pending: injection timing control circuit malfunction Their computer's diagnosis was replacement of the FUEL INJECTION MANAGEMENT SYSTEM. We were told by the technician that this was the computer brain on the injector pump. This was an indication that the injectors are not getting the fuel at the right time. He said that he did not think that the injector pump itself was failing since when this happens other codes would be coming up for massive malfunction. The technician said it is possible to get a calibrated computer component to reinstall on the injector pump BUT that this can only be ordered from Dodge. According to VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP under DEAD PETAL "This symptom is usually caused by either a faulty APPS [no codes so not the culprit] or a faulty computer on the top of the VP44....intermittent 'Dead Pedal' and no codes, YOU NEED AN INJECTION PUMP!"HARD START HOT OR COLD "If the truck......shows white smoke on start up, your problem is the computer on the top of the injection pump. This component cannot be replaced in the field as it has to be programmed and calibrated to the mechanical part of the VP44. You have to buy a replacement VP44 injection pump to correct this problem". ROUGH IDLE OR MISS AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS LIGHT THROTTLE " This is always the computer on the top of the injection pump, as long as there is APPROPRIATE LIFT PUMP PRESSUREand no codes pertaining to [etc.,etc.,]......you know what a bad computer means: REPLACE THE VP44! So which is it? Can the computer be replaced or does the entire injector pump have to be replaced because the computer cannot be replaced once it leaves the factory? If I have to replace the whole unit, does anyone know if any special tools are required? Should I purchase the Dodge technical repair book for my model to assist with the repair? It has also been suggested to me to try to find a Cummings repair mechanic not associated with Dodge if possible in case I get in a bind......I will tell you this - repairing aircraft engines is much easier to deal with than all of this! Ironically I stopped at Walmart afterward where I met a Diesel mechanic on heavy machinery. He also indicated that the computer component could be replaced. His son repairs the diagnostic scanners used to read our codes and so he suggested completely disconnecting the battery from the terminal in order to reset the computer - in case this solves the problem. In his experience this works if the computer is not toast. So right now I myself feel like toast. I have disconnected the battery from all terminals and am going to let it go till tomorrow when I hope to review any advice posted.....which I badly need.

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08-23-2008, 09:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
*dkletti8* Diesel Tech Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 31 dkletti8's Truck Pics	Did you try to cycle your key switch to get the codes? __________________ 02 2500 4x4 5.9HO 6 speed 4"mbrp straight pipe Diablosport Powerpuck BHAF silencer ring mia moon visor sprayed liner 52 Power Wagon all stock

08-23-2008, 12:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
02isb Cummins Fan Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 69 02isb's Truck Pics	sounds like you could do the vp yourdelf and save at least 2k. pretty sure code p216 is bad pump. __________________ 02 2wd club cab,short bed auto. custom bahf (kn) and mounting tray heat shield, mprb 4" and airdog 100,silencer ring removed,adrenaline with pulse

08-23-2008, 01:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
jcarrillo Newbie Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2 jcarrillo's Truck Pics	I have a similar situation with my '02. It acts up when it is cold or when i drive around 55mph for a while . when it is cold i cycle the key while i am driving and it comes back to life. I have been able to get by like this for several months. It is a little inconvenient but I have offset $1200 pump for a while. By the way my fuel pressure is good too. Not quite as good as yours but acceptable non the less. If you need time to save for a pump it may be an option.

08-23-2008, 01:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
ramblin_man Cummins Fan Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: full time RVer Posts: 30 ramblin_man's Truck Pics	Oh it is so wonderful to know someone else out there is having the same exact symptoms AND HAS A Lift PUMP WHICH IS REGISTERING PRESSURE! I have been referred to a site which has a complete diagnostic rundown in order to identify exactly what is failing and is not failing in association with the injector pump including the lift pump: VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP I have a lot of work ahead of me and at least like you stated, I CAN drive despite the annoyances. I am stuck here however till I get this fixed because there is no way I am going over a Rocky Mountain Pass with these symptoms....plus I need a campground which will allow repairs - so far this one I am at has been understanding. Grand Junction has more services by far, but I don't want to chance towing my "home" in this condition even thought I am still making it down the road with less symptoms towing than not towing. I have to go and get my DTC code reading at an autoparts store yet today and take it all from there. Last edited by ramblin_man : 08-23-2008 at 01:46 PM.

08-24-2008, 02:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
Mike516882 Diesel Head Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Chicago/West Lafayette Posts: 1,476 Mike516882's Truck Pics	p0216 is the Vp44 Death code...Its time to start hitting up the venders on the forum for some prices!! Mike __________________ 2000 QCSB,Green,47RE, 4x4,4.10's, Leveling kit, 315/75/16 Mud Rovers on DC-1 Blacks, Fass150, Draw Straw II, Nano-4510,150hp Sticks, Edge Comp, Billet Converter, Custom Valve Body, The Important Gauges. SINGLE 6" Miter

08-24-2008, 02:05 AM	#9 (permalink)
Mike516882 Diesel Head Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Chicago/West Lafayette Posts: 1,476 Mike516882's Truck Pics	btw i got a new VP44 put in for a reaaaallllly goood price at DPS __________________ 2000 QCSB,Green,47RE, 4x4,4.10's, Leveling kit, 315/75/16 Mud Rovers on DC-1 Blacks, Fass150, Draw Straw II, Nano-4510,150hp Sticks, Edge Comp, Billet Converter, Custom Valve Body, The Important Gauges. SINGLE 6" Miter

08-24-2008, 02:18 AM	#10 (permalink)
dieseltracks Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Flora, Indiana Posts: 2,724 dieseltracks's Truck Pics	As Mike stated, the 0216 code usually means that the VP44 is on it's last leg. Unhooking the battery cables and clearing the code will do nothing to help the problem if the VP is on it's last leg, Sorry. To answer 1 of your questions, NO, the electronics CANNOT be replaced individually on the VP44. The whole IP must be replaced. Even though you have good fuel pressure, that doesn't always ensure that your VP44 will live a long life. Unfortunately, sometimes it's just luck of the draw with the VP44. There is a write-up on here somewhere with video that explains how to change the VP44 pump, I'll try to find the link for you. I'll get back to you. Here's one. Click on the links in this thread (video). vp44 tools and replacement Here's another. Basically the same thing without the video. VP-44 R&R....its not that hard!!!! This one could come in handy. VP44 - Gear Pulling Method And 1 more. CumminsDatabase.com :: Bosch VP44 Fuel Injection Pump Replacement That oughta keep ya busy for awhile. __________________ 2002 2500 QC LONG BED 4x4--AUTO--ICEBOX w/S&B FILTER--HOLLEY RED w/IN-TANK PUMP--HX35--BD 3-PIECE PORTED MANIFOLD--4"EXHAUST--HUSHPOWER MUFFLER--COBALT PYRO/BOOST/TRANS/FUEL PRESS.--BILSTEIN HD's--DAYTON TIMBERLINE M/T's 285/75/16..............On it's way.............Goerend TC and VB Last edited by dieseltracks : 08-24-2008 at 02:44 AM. Reason: added link

08-24-2008, 07:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
96ram1500 Cummins Fan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: KY Posts: 81 96ram1500's Truck Pics	Check the classifieds on this forum. I saw a vp for 700. Very good deal. He says it was never installed because he just sold the truck and didn't need it.

08-24-2008, 11:42 AM	#12 (permalink)
ramblin_man Cummins Fan Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: full time RVer Posts: 30 ramblin_man's Truck Pics	Thanks SO MUCH! (By the way, I would like to say hi - I'm tater_chip, ramblin_man's right hand gal of 20 years. I write all this stuff up for him and will be assisting in the repairs. FUN, FUN, FUN!) I really want to thank EVERYONE for their input and support. We are going to go over all the info you have provided so graciously to us and will let you know what transpires. I guess we will have to break down and face it - our IP is dieing. That is a major bummer at 66K with a lift pump pressure monitor installed to try to bypass this expensive repair........WHICH WILL HAVE TO TAKE PLACE IN A CAMPGROUND! no comfy garage. But after our own Dodge experience, there is little other alternative.