I too was wondering the parameters of there answers. Have they actually tested in real time on the 6.7, if so wondering why they havent posted there result prior. Sounds like a bunch of heresay so far without actually testing and results.

 

I thought that in diesels there was no such situation as rich/lean. There is no throttle body on a diesel to control flow of air, this flow in controlled by injecting more or less fuel. more fuel will cause the motor to speed up and suck in more air, less will cause the motor to slow down. (really simplified way of putting it) less fuel = less power (not a lean mixture)

 

This will be my last post on the topic as I do not really care (No longer true). It was a slow day at the shop and is the only reason why I posted so much as I was board.

These pictures are from my 2008 Duramax up date class. The class is taught by GM engineers and they covered EGR issues in 10 pages. This data is given to dealer techs, but since I own my own shop and am a Student , I can attended for free. Similar data was also shown at both the 6.4 and 6.7 seminars, but those books are not at home with me now and is why I did not take pictures of them. If you run a EGR blocking plate, or tamper with it, you powertrain warranty can be voided. Yes, you still keep your interior and exterior warranty. Hear is a direct quote form the PowerPoint Presentation:

"The block off plate is a so called performance part that is sold in order to increase performance and add economy. It makes the engine loud and sets a trouble code. The same company sells a little resistor that feeds voltage from the EGR position sensor to the mass air flow sensor . This tricks the ECM into thinking the EFR has opened. This prevents a DTC however the mixture is lean causing ENGINE DAMAGE. Look for any wires spliced into the mass air sensor wires."

This pictures shows that not all vehicles will react to EGR tampering. This is relevant to all pre 07 trucks with EGR's. All post 07 trucks act like NE1, YF5, and VCL groups. The key operational differences among these groups is how emission related DTC's are processed. In short, the FE9 trucks treat EGR system DTC's as non emissions and simply stores a record of the fault with no corrective action. This is good, but the NE1, YF5 and VCL trucks typically require 2 trips of the code and then trigger an SES light with some form of reduced performance.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. SS 2301-1312 (1982), and general principles of the Federal Trade Commission Act, a manufacturer must prove that any aftermarket part damaged the engine, before they can legally remove the warranty if I remember correctly. Don't hold me to that one, as I am not a lawyer.

Everything that was posted before was true to my knowledge. Please read the posts carefully and do not add words or ideas, as it does not help to solve a discussion. I do not think this information will change anyone's mind. I was just presenting facts, if you do not want to believe me or GM, Ford and Dodge engineers that is fine. If you powertrain warranty is voided due to EGR alterations, sue them and ask for proof! I am sure they can find something. If I owned a 6.6, 6.0, 6.4 or 6.7 I would not run an EGR, but I would be sure I was supplying a proper amount of fuel to offset the added air that was other wise not accounted for due to the fact that the EGR is disconnected.

You can see all my previous posts on the subject hear:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/6....com/forum/6-7l-performance-parts-discussion/122792-need-help-going-dealer.html

Numbers: 4, 7, 10, 12, 14, 17.

For those that do not believe me with out seeing my credential I have the following:

Masters of Science in Industrial Technology (almost done)
Bachelors of Science in Industrial Technology (CSU Fresno)
4 Associates Degrees in Automotive
Two 37 and 35 Unit College Certificates in Automotive
ASE Master Gasoline and Diesel Engine Machinist
ASE Master Automobile Technician
ASE Heavy Duty Truck Technician
L1
Enhanced Smog and Brakes Licence through the Bureau of Automotive Repair


Don't Kill the Messenger,
Cheers

 

Most guys have given up on their warrenty to get their truck to run the way they like it too. I'm unsure of what message you are trying to convey with this post? You certainly have resources on this information.

Thanks,

This will be my last post on the subject as I do not really care. It was a slow day at the shop and is the only reason why I posted so much as I was board.

These pictures are from my 2008 Duramax up date class. The class is taught by GM engineers and they covered EGR issues in 10 pages. This data is given to dealer techs, but since I own my own shop and am a Student , I can attended for free. Similar data was also shown at both the 6.4 and 6.7 seminars, but those books are not at home with me know and is why I did not take pictures of them. If you run a EGR blocking plate, or tamper with it, you powertrain warranty can be voided. Yes, you still keep your interior and exterior warranty. Hear is a direct quote form the PowerPoint Presentation:

"The block off plate is a so called performance part that is sold in order to increase performance and add economy. It makes the engine loud and sets a trouble code. The same company sells a little resistor that feeds voltage from the EGR position sensor to the mass air flow sensor . This tricks the ECM into thinking the EFR has opened. This prevents a DTC however the mixture is lean causing ENGINE DAMAGE. Look for any wires spliced into the mass air sensor wires."

This pictures shows that not all vehicles will react to EGR tampering. This is revelant to all pre 07 trucks with EGR's. All post 07 trucks act like NE1, YF5, and VCL groups. The key operational differences among these groups is how emission related DTC's are processed. In short, the FE9 trucks treat EGR system DTC's as non emissions and simply stores a record of the fault with no corrective action. This is good, but the NE1, YF5 and VCL trucks typically require 2 trips of the code and then trigger an SES light with some form of reduced performance.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. SS 2301-1312 (1982), and general principles of the Federal Trade Commission Act, a manufacturer must prove that any aftermarket part damaged the engine, before they can legally remove the warranty if I remember correctly. Don't hold me to that one, as I am not a lawyer.

Everything that was posted before was true to my knowledge. Please read the posts carefully and do not add words or ideas, as it does not help to solve a discussion. I do not think this information will change anyone's mind. I was just presenting facts, if you do not want to believe me or GM, Ford and Dodge engineers that is fine. If you powertrain warranty is voided due to EGR alterations, sue them and ask for proof! I am sure they can find something.

For those that do not believe me with out seeing my credential I have the following:

Masters of Science in Industrial Technology (almost done)
Bachelors of Science in Industrial Technology (CSU Fresno)
4 Associates Degrees in Automotive
Two 37 and 35 Unit College Certificates in Automotive
ASE Master Gasoline and Diesel Engine Machinist
ASE Master Automobile Technician
ASE Heavy Duty Truck Technician
L1
Enhanced Smog and Brakes Licence through the Bureau of Automotive Repair

Cheers

 

so I am guessing if I didn't see a decrease in power I am ok? or not?

 

This system only seems to run lean at a slight throttel. That is due to the connect between the egr intake and vgt. It happen on some trucks and the effect of it is turbo flutter.

 

If you have deleted you egr and your truck is black smoking from additional mods then you shouldn't be running lean..... Black smoke=excessive fuel= rich condition? Just my .02 Didn't go to college or have my own shop.

 

I am not too concerned about the warranty, just my motor. However, I don't think I have heard of anyone having problems with the EGR blocked or deleted.

 

Lean conditions will show in your EGTs. If the EGTs are good, I'm not scared.

 

Right On, exactly what I was thinking! :thumbsup:

 

I am guessing egts will be higher?

 

no, they will be LOW. lean = not enough fuel = no revs = no heat. Only in a gas engine will you get higher temps when you run lean.

 

I wonder at what point we can expect engine damage due to no EGR?

Across this forum we have hundreds of thousands of EGRless miles and to date I can't remember hearing of a single engine failure that was attributed to running with the EGR blocked, in terms of performance disconnecting the EGR isn't exactly giving power gains but I can't think of anyone who has been set back by it.

 

That's what I was getting at. I have heard of no problems, only good things.

 

Well call Banks Eng. they can tell you what happens when you run to lean..

 

The little word with the big meaning

"IF"


This is the single most important word of this discussion.

"IF" the system can not compensate for no EGR.

I agree with JL that there will be a lean / under fueled condition with no compensation, however, no one has stated, (much less shown evidence) that our system cannot compensate for no EGR. Even with the tighter tolerances mention by JL. However, no one has proven that it does either.

Information was provided to help individuals make decisions about how they manage their personal property. That’s a good thing...thanks JL, & other contributors.

Now, can anyone provide specs on our o2 sensors and our systems ranges?

 

"IF"


This is the single most important word of this discussion.

"IF" the system can not compensate for no EGR.

I agree with JL that there will be a lean / under fueled condition with no compensation, however, no one has stated, (much less shown evidence) that our system cannot compensate for no EGR. Even with the tighter tolerances mention by JL. However, no one has proven that it does either.

Information was provided to help individuals make decisions about how they manage their personal property. That’s a good thing...thanks JL, & other contributors.

Now, can anyone provide specs on our o2 sensors and our systems ranges?

Right on. . . The Old man knows his Chit. :thumbsup:

IMHO - The only reason GM and any other OEM manufacturers claim engine damage is this:

When you run an EGR system on a Diesel, it is most effective to put a throttle plate in also, to control incomming air from the turbo. When an EGR opens, this throttle plate will close and restrict air from the turbo from entering the motor, and allow air from the EGR to enter in its place. If you put a block off plate on your EGR, but fail to remove that throttle plate, you are sending the wrong signal to the ECU. Depending on the ECU's calculations to keep the motor running, would depend on what actually happens after this. In the simplest version, the ECU would think that X amount of air is entering the motor, and would inject X amount of fuel to mix with that air. But with the EGR blocked, you are getting less than X amount of air, yet still injecting X amount of fuel (creating a "rich" condition). The ECU's in the new diesels are MUCH more complex than this, and I do not pretend to know everything about them. But the information in that book lacks anything to prove to me that blocking an EGR on a diesel would cause damage to an engine. Even if blocking an EGR caused a "lean" condition, diesels are known to run at levels of even 100:1 air fuel ratio. The combustion process is entirely different from a gas motor, and rich/lean conditions are not nearly the problem as they are on a gas motor.

On the 6.7, most are unplugging the EGR solenoid on top of the intake horn, which throws a check engine light. That check engine light tells the ECU that there is a problem with the EGR and will shut down all EGR functions. IMHO the ONLY way to do damage, and it is a slim possibility, is to tell the motor that the EGR IS functioning when it is actually not working correctly. So, no worries 6.7 owners, no damage will be done by unplugging your EGR.

sorry, done rambling now

no, they will be LOW. lean = not enough fuel = no revs = no heat. Only in a gas engine will you get higher temps when you run lean.

I kept saying that, but guys were bashing me for being wrong so I shut up! (For a change)

I wonder if 'going lean' was merely the technical writers way of describing the increase in combustion temperatures that result from removing EGR from the mixture. (As I understand it)

Iam with shibby

There is no such thing as running a diesel lean and hurting the engine you control the heat with fuel. The egr is replacing the oxygen in the cylinder with spent exhaust gas to cool the burn so if you delete the egr you will have more heat because of more oxygen. Never have I seen or had a truck in my shop with a engine failure from running lean.
I have had several with injector failure that will take out a piston.
There are no simularities between diesel and gas they are totally diferent in the way the run.

Dont take this the wrong way it is just my view
Shane


The throttle body butterfly is there to allow the egr to pull exhaust gas in while under boost if needed the butterfly will close and and the engine running will help pull the exhaust gas in.
or at least this is the way dodge has it set up

Correct me if I am wrong. . .But a failed injector will take a piston out because of lack of lubricant? I forget. . . You know I'm old. . .

I think its just a crock of chit, Egr is the engine killer.

I It is my understanding the timing increases when the EGR is removed. People have put thousands of miles on these trucks with the EGR's unplugged or removed. As far as I know, only 3 people have lost a piston. One was beefed up (KMK) One was Stock but he did it himself and another stock one.

There are 4 squirts going into the cylinders as it is. You gonna tell me a 6.7 is going to run lean? I don't think so.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as an Open and Closed loop like a gasser either.

 

IMHO - The only reason GM and any other OEM manufacturers claim engine damage is this:

When you run an EGR system on a Diesel, it is most effective to put a throttle plate in also, to control incomming air from the turbo. When an EGR opens, this throttle plate will close and restrict air from the turbo from entering the motor, and allow air from the EGR to enter in its place. If you put a block off plate on your EGR, but fail to remove that throttle plate, you are sending the wrong signal to the ECU. Depending on the ECU's calculations to keep the motor running, would depend on what actually happens after this. In the simplest version, the ECU would think that X amount of air is entering the motor, and would inject X amount of fuel to mix with that air. But with the EGR blocked, you are getting less than X amount of air, yet still injecting X amount of fuel (creating a "rich" condition). The ECU's in the new diesels are MUCH more complex than this, and I do not pretend to know everything about them. But the information in that book lacks anything to prove to me that blocking an EGR on a diesel would cause damage to an engine. Even if blocking an EGR caused a "lean" condition, diesels are known to run at levels of even 100:1 air fuel ratio. The combustion process is entirely different from a gas motor, and rich/lean conditions are not nearly the problem as they are on a gas motor.

On the 6.7, most are unplugging the EGR solenoid on top of the intake horn, which throws a check engine light. That check engine light tells the ECU that there is a problem with the EGR and will shut down all EGR functions. IMHO the ONLY way to do damage, and it is a slim possibility, is to tell the motor that the EGR IS functioning when it is actually not working correctly. So, no worries 6.7 owners, no damage will be done by unplugging your EGR.

sorry, done rambling now

 

IMHO - The only reason GM and any other OEM manufacturers claim engine damage is this:

When you run an EGR system on a Diesel, it is most effective to put a throttle plate in also, to control incomming air from the turbo. When an EGR opens, this throttle plate will close and restrict air from the turbo from entering the motor, and allow air from the EGR to enter in its place. If you put a block off plate on your EGR, but fail to remove that throttle plate, you are sending the wrong signal to the ECU. Depending on the ECU's calculations to keep the motor running, would depend on what actually happens after this. In the simplest version, the ECU would think that X amount of air is entering the motor, and would inject X amount of fuel to mix with that air. But with the EGR blocked, you are getting less that X amount of air, yet still injecting X amount of fuel (creating a "rich" condition). The ECU's in the new diesels are MUCH more complex than this, and I do not pretend to know everything about them. But the information in that book lacks anything to prove to me that blocking an EGR on a diesel would cause damage to an engine. Even if blocking an EGR caused a "lean" condition, diesels are known to run at levels of even 100:1 air fuel ratio. The combustion process is entirely different from a gas motor, and rich/lean conditions are not nearly the problem as they are on a gas motor.

sorry, done rambling now

ah-HAH! So rich IS the culprit (sorry I'll leave :S

 

I wonder if 'going lean' was merely the technical writers way of describing the increase in combustion temperatures that result from removing EGR from the mixture. (As I understand it)

 

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. SS 2301-1312 (1982),

Is very missleading. What they mean by After Market part is a part supplied from another vendor other then the OEM vendor in which that part meets the spec's of the OEM part.

So when you pull your air intake off and install a AFE mega cannon that has nothing to do with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. SS 2301-1312 (1982), and it will not help you because that AFE Mega Cannon does not meet the OEM specs.

What it will help you on if you replace the drop in air filter element with a AFE, AEM, K&N, or whatever filter element that those companies claim that meet the OEM spec's.

The key to that Act is it has to meet OEM spec's. You can argue it with me and it does not matter to or not. But argue it with Dodge and Their Lawry and you will lose.

 

So Shane,
Am I ok with the egr block, I left the butterfly in and I just deal with the check engine light. I would think that as long as the light is on, the ecm knows there is a "problem" with the egr system and compensate with fuel/timing curves and oxygen. If I try to clear the code with the butterfly in, it will smoke blue and white. So i just leave the check engine light alone.

Follow me?
Thanks

 

By the way after deleting the egr, my back fender still gets a haze of black on it after a couple hundred miles. At night when cars are behind you and I put it to the wood, I can see the haze blowing all over the cars behind me.
I just don't agree that I am having a "lean" issue.
Plus the O2 sensors are in the exhaust system which should provide feedback in a closed loop system. Am I correct?

 

If anyone works at a dealership and has access to a Starscan they can run a simple test.

Tell us the O2 sensor reading while running normally. Unplug the egr. Tell us the new O2 sensor readings. That will tell us if the system is compensating for the non-fuctional egr system.

 

Interesting idea, I'm none of the above but I think I can access the O2 information... just need to find a stock 6.7 to look at.

 

I think its just a crock of chit, Egr is the engine killer.

 

:ditto::ditto::ditto:

 

I was thinking about this on the way home ... If this lean condition is effected by changes in airflow, wouldn't a TON of folks be having trouble when adding a CAI? It would seem this would increase air intake affecting the O2 mixture.

Mike

 

I'm going to jump in on this guys. I think I have an idea what the factory's logic is in this.

The Mass Airflow sensor is what the computer looks at when determining how much fuel to inject for a given throttle setting. When the EGR is supposed to be open, you let in some incombustible air. This in turn reduces the amount of fresh air going past the mass airflow sensor. So when the EGR is intact, the engine is only sent enough fuel to burn with the available oxygen as determined by the mass airflow sensor's flow rate. When you block off and fool the EGR system, causing the mass airflow to show a false reading, you are not putting in enough fuel to completely burn all of the oxygen available. Hence, you DO run lean.

It seems pretty straightforward to me...
MAF controls fuel mixture.
EGR fooler system works by giving ECM false MAF reading.
Making the MAF show less air is going in then actual amount = lean air to fuel mixture.

 

ok wait what is the argument again...??? it sounds like there is a question as to if you run a diesel engine lean if it will create more heat...or is the argument weather or not deleting the egr will creat more heat or not.???:confused013: somebody fill me in on what this is exactly about again..just want to understand what the argument is?

 

It started back here... http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/6...-7l-performance-parts-discussion/122792-need-help-going-dealer.html#post1307283

And sort of seems to be centered around removing the EGR causes a lean condition and engine damage.

From the first page.

however the mixture is lean causing ENGINE DAMAGE.

 

And sort of seems to be centered around removing the EGR causes a lean condition and engine damage.

That's what I thought, too. He started posting all of this factory technical information but then disappeared when he was questioned about it.

If I understand it correctly. With the EGR functioning, you will have a slightly overfuel condition as there is less useable air for combustion. This causes the particulate level to rise, hence the need for the DPF. With the EGR gone, there is now 100% clean air entering the cylinders.
I believe he was saying that the ECM will not compensate for a missing EGR, and matching the higher volume of air would create a "lean" condition and cause damage to the engine.

The EGR is used to lower cylinder temperature, which lowers the NOx emissions. If you remove the EGR, the cylinder temps would rise (but not to unsafe levels). Maybe this is what his confusion is?


Jason

 

so...pretty much run it how you want if it breaks just buy a new one? that's my plan bahahaha

 

Well here is how I see it. Blocking the EGR is not going to hurt anything. Diesels have ran along time without a EGR system. Now that the BIg three are not giving a reason or what the engine damage is going to be if you do block or delete the EGR. Reason being is there is not a reason. Why you may ask, because the damage is being done with the EGR functioning. The big three make a HUGE profit off of our broken and woren out trucks when we bring them in for service. IF our engine last 100k miles more without the EGR then that is profit out of their pocket.

Johnny-Law, you seem to be a smart person. Do you really think the engine will last longer with the EGR? I would put my 6.7 with the deletes and Blocked EGR against any stock 6.7 for longivity any day of the week. I know my engine will see more miles with less visits from a wrench.

But if you think the EGR is the best way according to the BIG three, why? Common sense tells us otherwise and most smart people have no common sense(meaning the people behind the big three writing the info that you provide us with).

 

Johnny-Law, you seem to be a smart person. Do you really think the engine will last longer with the EGR? I would put my 6.7 with the deletes and Blocked EGR against any stock 6.7 for longivity any day of the week. I know my engine will see more miles with less visits from a wrench.

But if you think the EGR is the best way according to the BIG three, why? Common sense tells us otherwise and most smart people have no common sense(meaning the people behind the big three writing the info that you provide us with).

The answer is below from my previous post, but again that is just my opinion. I have no problem installing many emission related performance enhancing products at my shop, but I always tell the customer all the ramifications that I know of, like I did above. I have to look in the mirror every day and do not want to be responsible for inadvertently damaging other peoples vehicles. That is why the final decision is with the customer.

If I owned a 6.6, 6.0, 6.4 or 6.7 I would not run an EGR, but I would be sure I was supplying a proper amount of fuel to offset the added air that was other wise not accounted for due to the fact that the EGR is disconnected. I would want my AFR at the ideal ratio for a given RPM block, the key word being ideal.