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4th Gen Performance Parts Discussion Discussion of Performance Parts For the 4th Gen Trucks...NO ADVERTISING

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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 01:18 AM Thread Starter
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In depth Turbo Discussion

No pleasantries.

Absolute Brutal truth from frustration and Logic.


If you don't care about the history of what I learned and how I learned it, Ignore the next paragraph.

I bought a 2012 Ram 2500 Quad Cab Short bed from my mother. She had been Tempted by, and given into, the whispers of others to give the truck more power. At 30k miles, It got a leveling kit, CAI, XRT pro, and an exhaust system to get rid of the DPF. The EGR system remained intact, but unplugged. Driven fairly, but worked until 80k, when I bought it. My 12 valve gave up the fight and I needed a reliable truck.
I drove it for 12k until the motor blew the head gasket. I figured it was the EGR cooler leaking, so I deleted it all except the throttle valve.
Finally realized it was the head. New gaskets from the deck up. ARP studs. Resurfaced Head. 10k later the overdrives started to shift HARD. $250 for H&S overdrive unlock for my tuner. Also buy an Edge CTS2 with pyro probe to monitor the truck. Got better for 5k miles. Then lost 6th gear only once driving down the highway. Saw it as the only warning. Spent near 10 grand on a Suncoast M3ga JR and billet Triple disk converter. 5k miles more. Variable Geo. Turbo is starting to lock up on start up because of soot build up. Spend $2,500 on a Fleece Cheetah. I like the exhaust brake and the ridiculously wide boost range, otherwise i would have bought a 2nd gen swap. Now to the meat of the matter.

I was 1 mile from my house when the stock turbo gave up. Compressor wheel came apart in about 20 pieces. Nothing got in the intercooler. Limped it home. My buddy and I installed the Cheetah in one night. Thankfully, I had it sitting in my living room. Was procrastinating from pulling the stock. I got less than 2 hours total drive time from the turbo. Shaft snapped off inside the compressor bearing and oil pressure forced the turbine down my exhaust into the muffler. Contacted Fleece because I have a 1 year warranty. 2 weeks and 93.00 in shipping costs later, I recieve a replacement. Installed on the truck the night I get it. That night (morning) I test drove the truck after a good break in procedure. Exhaust brake kicked on for 2 seconds at cruising speed (60 mph quarter throttle) then wend back to normal operation. Wrote it off as a dirty MAF or MAP sensor. Cleaned them and put the truck up for the night. Over the next week, the events not only happened again, but increased in regularity. Finally got tired of it. Obviously it's a bad actuator. On a turbo that i bought for 2,500$.

Let's talk about 2nd gen swaps.
I see many kits out there. The most tempting of which is the BD super B kit. After some research, I find that not many people like the s300 frame for 6.7's. So I researched the s400 frame. I use the truck for daily driving, mostly highway and city. I see that a common swap is the 475. seems excessive and i'd imagine it would suffer from extreme lag at low RPM. So the s465 is what I see as a good option. Except now i need to know what turbine will be best. A.R? I see 1.10, 1.0, and .9. Am I wrong in choosing the 465?
I tow medium fairly often. I daily drive it in stealth mode the most. I also enjoy beating up on the occasional powerstroke in the back country 1/4 mile.

Future plans include a 475 or 480 compound, EFI Live, and a Fass 150 Lift pump.
My goal is 650 on max tune, 575 clean.

So I ask you this:
Stick with the fleece and make them honor their warranty? or 2nd gen swap it?
if 2nd gen, What turbo (Specifics including compressor, turbine, and A.R) will provide the best for daily single and small in a compound?
What are the benefits of 464, 465,466? Turbine Size?
Who's EFI live tunes should I buy? (I live in Idaho and want them CUSTOM tailored to MY truck, not box tunes)


I'm at wit's end. The options are endless, and your combined knowledge is more than I could hope to amass in years.
Help me.


[2012 2500 straight piped, egr deleted, DPF delete, XRT pro, On-board air, Airbags in rear, leveled, B&W gooseneck Suncoast M3GA JR, Fleece Cheetah soon....]QUOTE=24vBoost;18779242]Why talk when you can wrench?
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Last edited by crazkilljoy; 03-22-2017 at 01:27 AM.
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 04:03 AM
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2014 2500. Egr/dpf/def delete mm3 with anarchy tunes. 2.5" level with 20s and 37s
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 07:37 AM
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I have a 465 and tow 6k to 12k quite often. It spools great, and Keeps egt's nice and cool. I have absolutely no complaints what's so ever. I think fleece has a 464 kit and I believe they offer efilive tunes...

Black 2012 ram 2500, Gladly tuned by anarchy, 465 turbo, 5" exhaust, 5" lift 35's on dc wheels,frontier front bumper(due to deer) southbend dd clutch....more to come!!!!!
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 09:21 AM
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Stainless 465 kit was perfect and had everything for my 2nd gen swap. Every nut and bolt.

Spool was great. I used and still do use Higher Power Performance. Benefit to them over other is if you ever decide to change tunes for a 2nd gen swap or do compounds he won't charge you like other tuners do for a new tune.

I would do the 465 with the 1.00 housing if your future plans are 600+ hp

'14 S465 tuned by HPP
'17 tuned by HPP
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 10:56 AM
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It seems that most people opt for the quicker spoolability of the .9 turbine housing. Regarding different companies' offerings, differences include the position of the turbo with respect to the exhaust ports (up or down position). IIRC, Stainless and Fleece offer theirs in the "up" position which can place it closer to firewall wiring but it seems like that can be easily remedied with DEI heat reflective tape or a turbo blanket providing insulation if you deem it to be a concern. Also, Fleece offers a nice replacement coolant reservoir (there will be interference with the stock positioned one with their kit) if you choose not to relocate your stock tank with their kit.
Source Automotive (Rip et. al. were great when supplying my second gen twin components) also offers a great kit but I believe theirs is in the "down" position. This would only be an issue if you are looking to run aftermarket shock towers as there would be inference with most. Beyond that, turbo orientation is a matter of personal preference, although I recall a dyno comparison that revealed slightly quicker spool in the upper position (for some reason).

A lot of folks are very happy with Fleece, Stainless, and Source, which are said to include every nut and bolt.

Having said that, and just to provide further confusion, the new S300SXE turbos have made an appearance in the 4th gen world and some people are touting their spoolability and compressor maps as superior to the s400s or at least as a viable alternative. H&S motorsports makes a turnkey kit. I haven't decided which direction I'm personally going and am on the fence.

Maybe James at Rollin Smoke Diesel (another great forum vendor) will chime in. I'm pretty sure he's run a couple of difference S400 variants (64 and 67.7?) on his 4th gen and currently has an S369SXE and can give you a comparative analysis.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazkilljoy View Post
No pleasantries.

Absolute Brutal truth from frustration and Logic.


If you don't care about the history of what I learned and how I learned it, Ignore the next paragraph.

I bought a 2012 Ram 2500 Quad Cab Short bed from my mother. She had been Tempted by, and given into, the whispers of others to give the truck more power. At 30k miles, It got a leveling kit, CAI, XRT pro, and an exhaust system to get rid of the DPF. The EGR system remained intact, but unplugged. Driven fairly, but worked until 80k, when I bought it. My 12 valve gave up the fight and I needed a reliable truck.
I drove it for 12k until the motor blew the head gasket. I figured it was the EGR cooler leaking, so I deleted it all except the throttle valve.
Finally realized it was the head. New gaskets from the deck up. ARP studs. Resurfaced Head. 10k later the overdrives started to shift HARD. $250 for H&S overdrive unlock for my tuner. Also buy an Edge CTS2 with pyro probe to monitor the truck. Got better for 5k miles. Then lost 6th gear only once driving down the highway. Saw it as the only warning. Spent near 10 grand on a Suncoast M3ga JR and billet Triple disk converter. 5k miles more. Variable Geo. Turbo is starting to lock up on start up because of soot build up. Spend $2,500 on a Fleece Cheetah. I like the exhaust brake and the ridiculously wide boost range, otherwise i would have bought a 2nd gen swap. Now to the meat of the matter.

I was 1 mile from my house when the stock turbo gave up. Compressor wheel came apart in about 20 pieces. Nothing got in the intercooler. Limped it home. My buddy and I installed the Cheetah in one night. Thankfully, I had it sitting in my living room. Was procrastinating from pulling the stock. I got less than 2 hours total drive time from the turbo. Shaft snapped off inside the compressor bearing and oil pressure forced the turbine down my exhaust into the muffler. Contacted Fleece because I have a 1 year warranty. 2 weeks and 93.00 in shipping costs later, I recieve a replacement. Installed on the truck the night I get it. That night (morning) I test drove the truck after a good break in procedure. Exhaust brake kicked on for 2 seconds at cruising speed (60 mph quarter throttle) then wend back to normal operation. Wrote it off as a dirty MAF or MAP sensor. Cleaned them and put the truck up for the night. Over the next week, the events not only happened again, but increased in regularity. Finally got tired of it. Obviously it's a bad actuator. On a turbo that i bought for 2,500$.

Let's talk about 2nd gen swaps.
I see many kits out there. The most tempting of which is the BD super B kit. After some research, I find that not many people like the s300 frame for 6.7's. So I researched the s400 frame. I use the truck for daily driving, mostly highway and city. I see that a common swap is the 475. seems excessive and i'd imagine it would suffer from extreme lag at low RPM. So the s465 is what I see as a good option. Except now i need to know what turbine will be best. A.R? I see 1.10, 1.0, and .9. Am I wrong in choosing the 465?
I tow medium fairly often. I daily drive it in stealth mode the most. I also enjoy beating up on the occasional powerstroke in the back country 1/4 mile.

Future plans include a 475 or 480 compound, EFI Live, and a Fass 150 Lift pump.
My goal is 650 on max tune, 575 clean.

So I ask you this:
Stick with the fleece and make them honor their warranty? or 2nd gen swap it?
if 2nd gen, What turbo (Specifics including compressor, turbine, and A.R) will provide the best for daily single and small in a compound?
What are the benefits of 464, 465,466? Turbine Size?
Who's EFI live tunes should I buy? (I live in Idaho and want them CUSTOM tailored to MY truck, not box tunes)


I'm at wit's end. The options are endless, and your combined knowledge is more than I could hope to amass in years.
Help me.




Sorry to hear of your troubles. Thanks for sharing. Was putting off studs and you just pushed me over the edge with this story. No matter what direction I would definitely make them honor their warranty or have them credit the cost towards one of their second gen kits. I like my vgt also but to have it modified or go with a fleece which is a modified new turbo make me nervous for your exact story. Thanks for sharing and keep the post going with what you decide to do and how you like it. I am also on the fence about a second gen swap or compounds.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 11:20 AM
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GNBEAST did an excellent description of the market.

'14 S465 tuned by HPP
'17 tuned by HPP
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 11:33 AM
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In depth Turbo Discussion

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Originally Posted by pwrmvr View Post
o matter what direction I would definitely make them honor their warranty or have them credit the cost towards one of their second gen kits.

^^^^ This. 1.0 or 1.10 for the AR.


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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 04:05 PM
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[QUOTE=GNBEAST;25939850]It seems that most people opt for the quicker spoolability of the .9 turbine housing. Regarding different companies' offerings, differences include the position of the turbo with respect to the exhaust ports (up or down position). IIRC, Stainless and Fleece offer theirs in the "up" position which can place it closer to firewall wiring but it seems like that can be easily remedied with DEI heat reflective tape or a turbo blanket providing insulation if you deem it to be a concern. Also, Fleece offers a nice replacement coolant reservoir (there will be interference with the stock positioned one with their kit) if you choose not to relocate your stock tank with their kit.
Source Automotive (Rip et. al. were great when supplying my second gen twin components) also offers a great kit but I believe theirs is in the "down" position. This would only be an issue if you are looking to run aftermarket shock towers as there would be inference with most. Beyond that, turbo orientation is a matter of personal preference, although I recall a dyno comparison that revealed slightly quicker spool in the upper position (for some reason).








Anyone else know of any of the other second gen kits in the down position ?
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 05:12 PM
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Alternatively, there is a "straight outlet" manifold produced by Steed Speed that placed that provides a neutral angle, i.e. extends directly out from the head without "up" or "down" bias. I'm not sure which kit uses this (there are those that offer the Steed Speed mani option but I think it's a 45* variant), but I'm sure others will chime in to shed some light on the topic.

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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 05:21 PM
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In depth Turbo Discussion

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Originally Posted by GNBEAST View Post
Alternatively, there is a "straight outlet" manifold produced by Steed Speed that placed that provides a neutral angle, i.e. extends directly out from the head without "up" or "down" bias. I'm not sure which kit uses this (there are those that offer the Steed Speed mani option but I think it's a 45* variant), but I'm sure others will chime in to shed some light on the topic.

No kit offered, that'd be DIY.

[quote=pwrmvr;25942770]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNBEAST View Post
It seems that most people opt for the quicker spoolability of the .9 turbine housing. Regarding different companies' offerings, differences include the position of the turbo with respect to the exhaust ports (up or down position). IIRC, Stainless and Fleece offer theirs in the "up" position which can place it closer to firewall wiring but it seems like that can be easily remedied with DEI heat reflective tape or a turbo blanket providing insulation if you deem it to be a concern. Also, Fleece offers a nice replacement coolant reservoir (there will be interference with the stock positioned one with their kit) if you choose not to relocate your stock tank with their kit.
Source Automotive (Rip et. al. were great when supplying my second gen twin components) also offers a great kit but I believe theirs is in the "down" position. This would only be an issue if you are looking to run aftermarket shock towers as there would be inference with most. Beyond that, turbo orientation is a matter of personal preference, although I recall a dyno comparison that revealed slightly quicker spool in the upper position (for some reason).








Anyone else know of any of the other second gen kits in the down position ?

Fleece, Maryland, g&r, virtually every kit offered with the exception of stainless is in the down position.



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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 05:35 PM
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Hopefully this will help

2nd Gen Kit **Poll**

'14 S465 tuned by HPP
'17 tuned by HPP
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