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Old 12-18-2010, 09:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Clutch install gone bad...

Here's the story:
Drove from southern California to Northern Washington. Clutch slipped maybe a couple times in a days worth of driving. Drove a couple hundred miles to my sister's house and the clutch slippage increased dramatically. So... bought a clutch kit (Dynapack NU31581). Yeah, I know... I'll get a South Bend clutch later, okay?
Day 1:
Got transmission/t-case a few inches out by the end of the day, decided to get a transmission jack the following morning.
Day 2:
Got jack. Got transmission/t-case out. Removed old pressure plate, clutch disc, pilot bearing, and throwout bearing. Flywheel was scored, had a few shallow cracks and a couple very small heat spots. Took flywheel to a local shop for grinding. Installed flywheel, and new pilot bearing, clutch disc, pressure plate, and throwout bearing. At midnight, everything was reassembled(except rear drive shaft). Connected batteries. Started engine. Shifted into 4HI. Depressed clutch pedal(clutch pedal has almost no resistance over it's full travel). Shifted into 3RD (6SPChrysler). Slowly let up clutch pedal. Nothing happened. It was as if the truck was not in gear at all. Same thing for 1ST and Reverse. I even pumped the clutch pedal, and still nothing. I let the clutch pedal up and shifted into 3RD. Nothing. No chattering, no lurching, no grinding, nothing. Like it was still in neutral.
Day 3(today):
Pulled it apart, checked the installed parts. Removed the parts. THERE ARE NO WEAR MARKS ON THE FRICTION SURFACES(clutch disc/pressure plate/flywheel). No wear marks means the clutch stayed engaged during my manipulation of the clutch pedal and shifter. Everything was installed correctly.
My dad (mechanic of 35 years) looked at it, and couldn't figure it out. I can't figure it out. My two mechanic friends couldn't figure it out. My uncle is a diesel mechanic, and he couldn't figure it out.

So... to recap: the clutch stayed engaged, but the truck acted as though it was in neutral. Aside from the original problem of clutch slippage, the truck had no issues. Shifted into all the gears, ran just fine, very small amount of black smoke if I used the throttle excessively. 4WD worked just fine. I just replaced the rear center u-joint, so for a few miles I drove between a few auto parts stores in 4HI, but without the rear driveshaft(yeah yeah... FWD Cummins is just wrong).

I'm about to reinstall the old pressure plate and throw it back together. Just to see if that makes a difference. I need help. I'd like to think that I'm a fairly competent mechanic, considering I am a mechanic in the Navy, but this is kicking my patootie like there's no tomorrow.

:confused01 3:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So... to update:

Second install of tranny/tcase is complete. The only difference is that while the truck is running, now the tranny won't shift into any gear. I got some loud gear clash when I attempted to shift into Reverse. With the engine not running, I can cycle through all 6 gears, no problem.

To the tranny and t-case questions: the t-case is definitely in 4HI, and the transmission is definitely going into gear.
To the flywheel questions: If I assume that 100 thousandths were ground off the flywheel, that's about 1/8". The current travel of the throwout out bearing is from 3 3/8"s to 2 3/8"s (measured as depths INTO the clutch housing, i.e. from the clutch/engine housing mating surfaces). The diaphragm fingers will protrude 2 6/8"s INTO the clutch housing. So the effective travel of the clutch slave pushrod will force the throwout bearing towards the diaphragm fingers, meet the fingers at 2 6/8"s, and then push against the fingers for 3/8"s of travel. If the flywheel was ground down a whole 1/8" (approximately 125 thousandths), then the previous effective travel was 4/8"s. The clutch pedal would PREVIOUSLY disengage the clutch at about 1/3 of it's initial travel. If I went from proper operation at 4/8"s, then I should still have proper operation at some point of the clutch pedal travel (because I went from 4/8"s to 3/8"s effective travel), but I get no disengagement at all(no resistance from the pedal, even all the way down to the floor board) from the clutch disc.
My conclusion is the same as the previous poster that had an issue with his hydraulics. If the throwout bearing will engage for 3/8"s, and installing the slave cylinder will meet resistance at 3/8"s before it is completely tightened down at the back of the clutch housing, that means that there is a loss of hydraulic pressure upwards from the slave cylinder. That's either a line, master, or reservoir issue, since those are the remaining components. Since they are all one assembly, replacement is required. But, according to the chilton's manuals, the master cylinder assembly and slave cylinder assembly must be replaced together because once the line is connected, it cannot be disconnected.

Thoughts?
(nobody within a hundred miles sells the slave cylinder assembly)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2010/12/25 Update...
Bought a stock hyd. system. (Couldn't get a SouthBend before my leave period ended). Bought new flywheel. Installed new flywheel and OLD hyd. system. Truck lurched when I started it in gear, but clutch pedal was still no resistance and full travel. Installed new hyd. system. Works great.

Thanks for all the help, suggestions, and tips. In other news, I did take some pictures, soooo... I'm off to the tech/article section to see if there's a write-up for this. Also, I'd be glad to detail more of what I went through, just let me know.
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Last edited by Sykkone; 12-25-2010 at 03:36 AM. Reason: Update
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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you sure your transfer case isnt in neutral. The clutch will engage even if there's a hydraulic failure.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I encountered the same problem you are having when I installed my clutch setup. Make sure the transfer case lever going to 4wd shifter is in the correct postion before installing linkage or it will appear as you are in neutral at all times. It will only work one way, before linkage is installed. Also you described slippage clutch and your pedal feels no pressure? Well the stock hydraulics are junk and they can't be adjusted or bleed so sometimes when you take the clutch cable out of transmission it weakens it or makes it junk and it wont allow it to go into gear. a good way to see if this is your problem is put it in gear then push clutch in and start it with it in gear. if thats your case throw it away and order a adjustable one from southbend and you will be good a long time.
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:48 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpage View Post
you sure your transfer case isnt in neutral. The clutch will engage even if there's a hydraulic failure.
Connected the transfer case linkage exactly the way it was. Tested the manual shift lever from the fully forward position(4LO) to N to 2HI to fully rearward(4HI). All detents were nice and crisp, nice solid feel in each gear setting.

I double checked, because I doubted myself. My friends, my uncle, and my dad all asked the same thing. It was definitely in 4HI.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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if i read your first one right, you didnt hook up the rear driveshaft and just tested it off the front. put it in gear and see if you can turn the tranny by the rear driveshaft. If you can then theres som in the front.ething wrong if not its your transfer case or something
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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You had to remove your shifter when you did your repair I asume. Have you double checked the placement of the unit. Might have missed it's spot. Can you feel all gears?
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You guys are discussing it as if it's certain that the clutch isn't disengaging. It sounds to me like maybe it's not engaging at all. The OP said something about the clutch pedal having little or no resistance throughout it's travel. What if something is hanging up inside the bellhousing such that the clutch cannot engage? Wouldn't that explain everything that's happened so far?
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Going back to what rpage said, maybe your front hubs werent locked in, so there was no drive power going through the front tires. Just a thought.
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I reread your first post and you said you hung the trans/tcase over night while you got a jack. You might have bent the input shaft around it's inner bearing not allowing it to engage onto the mainshaft.
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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How can a clutch not engage? When you bolt the pressure plate on it clamps the disc in place, it's engaged! When you push the clutch in it disengages. So if your hydraulics fail your clutch will always be engaged. The only way your clutch can not engage is if your pressure plate doesn't reach your disc but I don't see how that can happen.

My first thought was the tranny shifter isn't right. My second thought is the t case shifter isn't right. Something is stuck in neutral.

I would quadruple check both shifters because that's really all it can be. Unless your t case is broken internally leaving it in neutral.
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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How much did they take off your flywheel to clean it up?
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:27 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbodually View Post
I encountered the same problem you are having when I installed my clutch setup. Make sure the transfer case lever going to 4wd shifter is in the correct postion before installing linkage or it will appear as you are in neutral at all times. It will only work one way, before linkage is installed. Also you described slippage clutch and your pedal feels no pressure? Well the stock hydraulics are junk and they can't be adjusted or bleed so sometimes when you take the clutch cable out of transmission it weakens it or makes it junk and it wont allow it to go into gear. a good way to see if this is your problem is put it in gear then push clutch in and start it with it in gear. if thats your case throw it away and order a adjustable one from southbend and you will be good a long time.
Just reinstalled the tranny/tcase again. Now it's not going in gear while the truck is running, and going into gear if the truck is not running. Considering the gear clash I heard while the truck was running and I attempted to shift it into reverse, the clutch is definitely engaged.
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