Cummins Diesel Forum banner

Regarding jkidd/DAP & BOSCH.....

89K views 323 replies 77 participants last post by  GPaw 
#1 · (Edited)
Ok, I have been in contact with 2 people from Bosch. A lot of you arent going to like this, but this isnt my opinion anymore, this is fact, as shown by the emails from BOSCH, and jkidds/DAP's own words and actions.

I have attached 3 screen shots of 3 emails involving 2 different representatives from Bosch. I have redacted all of the personal information out of the emails, to prevent anyone from getting ignorant, and deciding they want to harass anyone. I did leave the email domain (@us.bosch.com) visible to prove these emails did indeed come from Bosch. If you have questins about your certain injectors you bought from DAP, please do not message me asking me about them. I am providing all the information, its up to you to make a decision as to what you do. I think I have all my quotes from Bosch in italics to make it easier to see what they said. Again, you can refer to the attachments for proof. I hope they show up ok. So, lets get started....

1. DAP is not even an authorized BOSCH or BMS distributor/re-seller! There only 2 BMS distributors in the U.S. and they are Exergy and S&S. According to Bosch, as far as they know, DAP doesnt even have an agreement with either Exergy or S&S, to be buying BMS injectors from them either. So, to all the people who paid for "Brand New BMS" injectors... you were defrauded, as DAP had no access to the injectors to begin with. If the cant buy them, they cant sell them.... plain and simple.

2. jkidd has stated that Bosch is picky about part numbers and naming/descriptions etc.... so they had to change a few things to keep them happy. They used this as an excuse for advertising one thing, and delivering another. He even said "5) Bosch is very picky about using part #'s online and asks internet sellers who are not under some specific contracts to change the description or part # (as we use "OE" for genuine Bosch) 6) Bosch even goes as far as to request some places to alter images so there is no Bosch logo on parts". This is a lie. What jkidd failed to mention, is the reason they had to change so many descriptions on their website, is they were sent a cease and desist last year from Bosch, for continuing to "inferring they are an authorized reseller of Bosch or Bosch Motorsports products".

3. The 007 injector from one of the threads in question is indeed a European spec injector that was NEVER installed in any Dodge truck, period. The injectors from the thread in question, were indeed produced 7yrs ago, and are 7yr old injectors, produced in 2010.

4. Bosch also stated the above mentioned 007 injector, in the above mentioned thread, were "used" injectors, and not new.... "the injectors shown are previously used injector bodies and nuts".

5. Bosch also stated that the one ******* injector (B 445 120 262) that DAP sent to the OP of the thread in question "is the marking of a preproduction sample injector, that was never sold for general use, so most likely came from an engineering test engine. Again, not a new injector, but one that was reworked".

6. OEM does NOT mean used/reman'd as jkidd wants you to believe. OEM is a specific term, that means just that... Original Equipment Manufacturer. There is only one OEM of the Bosch injector for our trucks, and that is Bosch themselves. Now, you can use OEM components (Bosch doesnt manuf all the components themselves) if you know how/where to buy the components from the people who sell them to Bosch. And, you can use these components you purchased from the OEM component manuf. BUT, you have to designate the difference. Bosch stated "You are correct, once a third party reworks or modifies a component assembled by Bosch, they can no longer claim it is a new Bosch assembly. Again, that being said, they can state they used new Bosch parts in the assembly if that is the case, but they cannot state they are Bosch assemblies". DAP has proven habits of mislabeling things, to mislead people. There is only one OEM reman, and that is Bosch. If a company modifies that OEM Bosch reman in any way..... see #7...

7. DAP sells injectors labeled as DAP OEM. This is wrong, They are either OEM (Bosch New or Bosch Reman), or Reman with OEM components (NOT OEM, but listed as reman'd with OEM/Bosch components) or DAP injectors. They cannot be any combination of those 3 things.... they are 1 or the other or the other. If they are OEM, they are as they came from Bosch, and not tampered with. If they are reman'd with OEM components, by anyone other than Bosch, then they cannot be listed as OEM. If they are DAP reman's, then they cannot be listed as OEM. Once an OEM injector is modified in any way, it can no longer be referred to as OEM, as it is no longer abiding by OEM specs. OEM can be brand new Bosch, or new Bosch remans. Anything else, is NOT OEM.

8. DAP and Injectors direct claim to sell "Brand New Bosch" injectors at a discounted price, as they dont believe in all that markup, that others sell "Brand New Bosch" injectors for. Another lie. When asked if there is any way companies could be selling Brand New Injectors this cheap, Bosch specifically stated "Bosch can confirm that DAP and Injectors Direct are not authorized resellers of Bosch components and do not enjoy the same discount structure our authorized resellers do". So the truth is, the other guys are authorized, and even with the discount Bosch gives them for that, they still have to sell for higher prices than Injectors Direct and DAP claim to? DAP and Injectors Direct can sell cheaper than companies that get discounts from Bosch? I call BS.

9. When asked what would be the best way for people to ensure they are getting complete "Brand New Bosch" injectors, and to avoid all this fraud and misrepresentation by vendors in the industry, Bosch responded "They can go to an authorized Bosch reseller. The can go to Choose the Right Diesel Injector to find out more and find their closest Authorized Bosch reseller".

10. We had a representative from Industrial Injection come on here more than once, and try to help out and explain a few things. Turns out what he said was right also, but only a few of us believed him.

11. In an attempt to down play his sale of the 007 injectors (and one ******* injector) jkidd said "The many others were stainless bodies and new production". Exergy, one of the most trusted names in the business states in their FAQ: "Stainless steel bodies do not exist, the 5.9 series injectors have been changed over to the same material used for the higher pressure rated 6.7 series injectors. With the new body material the new 5.9s are stronger but still not as good as the 6.7 injector which has been designed from the ground up to handle higher injection pressures. In terms of reliability and strength the new body material is an improvement over the original. But is not, repeat, is not stainless steel". Yet another lie by jkidd.

12. To show about pricing new injectors and remans etc... Exergy also states in their FAQ "Q: Do you remanufacture injectors? A: At this time we do not remanufacture injectors. The time and component costs of doing the job correctly are equivalent to purchasing a new Bosch remanufactured unit. From what we have seen to date they are the only ones remanufacturing them correctly". So you all thinking you are getting a new injector for the price of a reman, think again. And you all getting remans for less than a Bosch OEM reman, are not getting quality. Again, Industrial Injection tried to explain this to everyone, and no one listened.

13. When asked about remans, Exergy stated in their FAQ: "Q: Are reman injectors any good? A: When done properly (and at this time in our opinion, the only proper remanufacturing is done by Bosch) the injectors are as good as new and better than the original injector design. All wear components have been replaced with new, and in most cases improved parts, making remans an excellent value."

14. BOSCH and the Bosch magneto logo are registered trademarks. Companies (C&D specifically referring to DAP's cease & desist order) misleading people by using the word BOSCH in all caps, was referred to like this by Bosch: "This would indicate they took head of the C&D we submitted and understand the implications of violating Bosch’s trademarks. The Bosch magneto logo and capitalized BOSCH are registered trademarks of Robert Bosch. As for the other components they claim to be new OE, the non-capitalized Bosch is not a trademark of Bosch, but a proper name which is allowed to be used under US law if they are Bosch products. Again, they are not an authorized Bosch reseller, their source of material put the authenticity under question. With their other products, they only claim them to be OE components and not specifically Bosch. If they purchase components from the OE dealer/distribution/manufacturer, then they can claim they are OE".

So, in conclusion, there is just SO much more that could be said, but I dont see the point. The facts obtained from Bosch itself proves DAP is a dishonest company that has been lying to people and selling them the wrong injectors for a long time. So much to the extent that Bosch had to send them a cease and desist order. jkidd is even so arrogant that he came to this board with his "if I say this is how it is, then this is how it is"... attitude, and talking about misinformation. When indeed it is he and his company, that are the ones guilty of misinformation. He stated to email him if you had any questions. Of course he wanted you to email him, rather than speak up in a thread, where he would be outed for all his lies, and people couldnt see the even more lies, he was feeding to unhappy customers.

To all the people who mocked myself and Smelonas, I hope you are happy. Rather than using a little common sense, doing a little homework, and looking at the facts.... you chose to make fun of us. Statements like "wild speculation bordering on paranoid delusions" or .... "8 pages of runaway insanity of conspiracy theories!"... were used. Rather than doing any homework to find the same facts/information that was available to us "insane and delusional conspiracy theorists"..... you chose blind and biased support of jkidd/DAP.... which only allowed them to be able tokeep lying to people over and over, rather than out him and DAP.

There is a LOT of information in this post. I have tried to proofread it, but my apologies if you find any typos or quotes missing.





 
See less See more
3
#2 ·
Nice job on all your homework. I myself have thought about contacting Bosch in the past to find out where to get true BMS injectors, I just never did. I ordered BMS injectors from DAP a while ago and maybe one day I will pull them to see what i have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverFox66
#3 ·
Thank you for posting all this I almost bought injectors from them but after having my old injectors tested by them (long story) and looking around I had a gut feeling something wasn't right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverFox66
#4 · (Edited)
I've been under a rock so i havent seen the other thread, this is the thread he is talking about if you missed it http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/3rd-gen-powertrain/2274930-who-use-injectors.html
If you havent read the thread above you should you can see how jkidd doesnt deal with any of the facts on the issue.

What a terrible person you have to be to play with words like that and be stealing peoples hard earn money.Gonna pull my DAP injectors out of my 2nd gen and go with someone who doesnt lie.I also have been having a weird issue with my injectors there 100hp DAP(REMAN) but i crank my smarty all they way up on level 9 and zero smoke,not that i want smoke but it should be smoking like a train like it used to.

Now knowing there business model of screw the customer iam sure alibaba is there supplier and there injectors are garbage.Thank god i only spent around $400 with them but guys spending $2500 for something that was worded or labeled wrong give me a break.Everyone should think twice about anything they bought from DAP,hopefully they get there money back or something comes out of this.Thanks SilverFox66 and cerb and everyone else who called out DAP for there garbage.

Iam going to send out my injectors and see what the test results come back with
 
#5 ·
Glad that I went with Exergy injectors when I replaced mine. Thanks for sharing, SilverFox. You've made a nice lateral move from busting oil myths to busting injector myths :thumbsup:

Huge thanks for doing the community a solid by asking the hard questions and posting clear evidence in the face of people calling you paranoid.
 
#12 ·
Im sorry about your injectors, but I couldnt share, what I didnt have. There were though, other threads about this issue and company, going back months ago. I only started receiving the information/emails yesterday, with the last of it coming in this morning... as the email dates verify. Then, rather than just fly off the handle and start posting on emotion and opinion, I had to gather my thoughts and decide the best and most factual way to present all this... and do it in an adult fashion.
 
#105 ·
If you need any assistance in those regards, please pm me (or email me, as I do not check the pm´s frequently) with your injector set number. We keep track of all BBI injectors including part numbers, our production date as well as the Bosch production date.
In general we are using only the latest injector parts to build BBI´s. So the basis for the 5.9l injectors are #238 #255 or #254 injectors.
 
#11 ·
have had one experience with them and it wasn't good. bought a set of 12v nozzles that were absolute junk. jkidd gave me runaround on returning them so i ended up scrapping them. would've been better off buying $150 worth of firewood and marshmallows.
 
#201 ·
Justin,

Would like to remind you of our correspondence and offer of assistance to warranty products.


"
justinfonder said:
hey, not really sure where this could go, but wanted to touch base with you.

back in may, believe it was memorial day sale, i picked up a set of the DAP 5x11 SAC 145* nozzles for a 1st gen motor. i had them installed on cleaned, tested, and popped low mile Bosch bodies by a local Bosch shop. I always thought the truck to be a bit sluggish and i always had a bit of an idle haze. over the past few months, idle haze has gotten much worse, mileage was really bad, and overall performance was just bad. So i swapped in a used set of stock IC injectors and poof, no idle haze, truck runs much better/smoother, feels like it has more power, even had to do a little tuning to get rid of some smoke as it was fueling harder. not sure if mileage has increased yet.

anyhow. between purchasing the nozzles and paying to have them put on bodies and such, i'm about $320 into them and needless to say, pretty unpleased with the end product. these probably have less than 3k miles on them. not sure if y'all have any way of rectifying this situation or if i'm just stuck with them. thanks. Justin
Justin,

Sorry that you are not super impressed. It is a great size for your application. If there is a problem with a nozzle that is not contamination we can replace it. We recommend full injectors as we cannot guarantee the work of another shop (and most are not familiar with performance applications). If its a problem with the nozzle we will replace it. (Often the nozzle/ injector gets blamed for poor install or contamination). Did you get them checked after you pulled them out? If you can verify a nozzle is bad we can send a replacement.

If you want us to go through the injectors and rebuild them and install any nozzles we will do a complete rebuild with new seals for $100.

Please email details or if you will let us rebuild/inspect the injectors for you to WARRANTY@DIESELAUTOPOWER.com"
 

Attachments

#15 ·
Thanks SilverFox for your research & hard work on this topic. Awesome. You might consider a name change to 'SilverPitBull' or 'SilverBadger'......again,nice work:thumbup:
 
#24 ·
Until you get the serial numbers you don't know WHAT you have. It is always good to know how to identify what you are buying, no matter now trustworthy you think the source is. As far as knowing about this before, there more than few threads that detailed a lot of this and raised some serious questions about this same thing well over a year ago. A lot of threads disappeared and got turned into a beat down because nobody wants to hear about what they did wrong. It isn't new thing and it is not JUST one vendor that is less than candid about products.

Since by 05 Cummins statement, he is now "assuming reman with 100hp nozzles", I would assume he thought he was paying for and getting NEW BMS100's.
Sounds like another case of fraud.

Honestly I would not feel safe purchasing anything from this vendor, let alone injectors.
BMS100's, as they used to be marketed, were, and maybe still are, a brand new up to date injector with a BMS designed 100 HP nozzle installed. That may very well be what he has, no way to tell unless serial numbers are examined. This is a relatively new thing because BMS lost the war with Bosch so expect mass confusion until it is sorted out.

As DonM pointed out, it isn't necessarily the end of the world. A lot of other things factor into the equation and the marketing tactics on BMS, Bosch, and a lot of others leave more than a little to be desired.

FWIW, I ordered BMS50's and that is what I got, that is the sum total of my experience there. I educated myself before I bought, then, got a much deeper education after the fact. Not all I learned was necessarily was good.
 
#19 ·
I wouldnt be too concerned over the injector being an older version. Some of those older solenoids have a quality and corresponding reliability that is higher than the newer ones. Some years of solenoids sold here in NA are just the worse things ever. 0445120114 for example. I often get sets with all 6 dead. The 0445120113 are terrible too.

The biggest weakness could turn out to be the internal control valve seals on this mans injectors, depending on manufacturer. Bosch hung the owner of 2003-2004 cummins injectors (part #0445120018) and some of the 04.5-06 (part #0445120032)out to dry with seals that failed too easily. A guy who did everything right by changing his filters and never running poor quality fuel could still be looking at injector repair or replacement because the seals would blow out. I cant believe a class action never happened over this.

It is funny to see those older hold down collars with the step in them going in a Dodge. I get those often in here from Europe. They are very old Iveco/Cummins stuff.

The steel used on new bodies is hot rolled but tempered before machining and heat treat. Its a higher alloy, but still not a 10.5% chromium stainless steel. Its higher alloy ingredients make it non-magnetic. The ferro atoms cant align as easily to make the part magnetic because other atoms are in the way, so to speak. The previous steel was hot rolled, annealed and a lower alloy. Harder to machine, but magnetic because is has so many ferro atoms that can line up. The shiny finish is more enviro friendly. Since so many complain about chromates ( cancer, your killing the fish, etc ) and you know the Germans are gonna go the enviro route when they can. Just ask Mercedes owners who got shafted by their goofy wiring coating that flaked off and wiped out engine harnesses. The coating was biodegradable.

Some of those newer 007 injectors are actually good stuff. Not sure of their material, but many are silanized (enviro friendly coating you see that makes them all shiny) But ,dont think the new steel bodies are perfect. They crack too. Just got 5 of a set of 6, cracked internally.

The best way to avoid an injector problem is to use quality fuel, change the filters often and dont store the truck for extended periods without driving it. Diesel fuel is somewhat hygroscopic, depending on temperature and bio percentages and can soak up water like brake fluids.
 
#20 ·
The research done by SilverFox66 and his communications with the Bosch company and the fact that he has shared all that information here, is a great public service to us all, and I'm confident I speak for many who frequent this forum in sincerely thanking him for doing this.

I hope that the mods will allow this thread and discussion to continue in that spirit. This is one of the great benefits to all of a forum such as this.
 
#25 ·
Interested to see what the forum powers think of this. This is clearly questionable(at best) sales tactics by a paying vendor of the forum.

Edit: personal accounts have been banned for much less over classified ad disputes
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverFox66
#33 ·
I promise we're aware of it, and I personally agree. Ultimately, it falls WAY above my head.

At least at face value, it's not a flattering look.
 
#27 ·
Thanks Silverfox66 - I wonder what I got from Injectors Direct. They all were new looking i.e. no worn spots, perfect anodization or whatever - they really all did look new, clear magneto logos and numbers - nothing like the pictures provided in the other thread. Wish I'd taken a good photograph of them before I had them installed - but they looked just like the ones that came out, same logo in the same places but I wasn't paying enough attention otherwise. Shoot. Wonder WTF is going to happen now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverFox66
#29 ·
I read on here and never saw anything bad about them and they were a vendor at a reasonable price.
When I ordered, which I looked at my receipt was about two months ago, they sent me injectors for an early truck and I remember seeing the 007 part number and I can't remember if it was the wrong injectors or the ones currently in the truck. Either way I want to pull them and find out whats in my truck, regardless I obviously didn't get what I paid for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DDRamFan
#30 ·
It's like when you go to rockauto and they have reman injectors for 120 dollars a piece. At least they are labeled remans, but still..

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverFox66
#31 ·
This is a huge disappointment. I just placed a large order for my cummins swap. Injectors, injection pump, and other parts. I can't stand doing business with dishonest people. Order should arrive tomorrow. I'm going to call them and see if I can return my order. I won't even open the box.
 
#32 ·
I'm not here to take sides or defend DAP in any way, but I can say that I got taken on a set of Bosch Motorsport injectors (not by DAP). I placed the order through a online vendor and when they arrived they did not look to be new. I called that vendor and they did a 3 way call with Scheid Diesel who they purchased them from. There was a rumor going around for a while that you can only get genuine BMS from Scheid as they are a Genuine Bosch dealer and they own the rights to BMS but I haven't heard nothing since. When the vendor asked Scheid why these were not new injectors and looked to be used reman, Scheid said that Bosch motorsports are no longer available and that they were building them themselves using motorsport nozzles. The vendor I bought mine through has since removed them from their website and stopped selling them. I then returned my injectors to Scheid and bought a set of injectors from said vendor that is rebuilt using genuine Bosch tips. No problems here.

I have a feeling that these small shop vendors are being lied to by the big companies and getting thrown under the bus when hits the fan! Like I said, not here to defend DAP, but I've seen a lot of different things like this and that is the feeling I get.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I have to disagree with everything you said.

1) These vendors know good and well when they send out an injector thats all scratched, that its not new.
2) If they dont have the common sense to tell its not new with the scratches and discoloration, then they have no business selling injectors.
3) The first post in this thread disproves that Scheid is the only one with BMS injectors. In fact, Bosch clearly stated that Exergy and S&S were the only BMS distributors in the U.S. Scheid could buy BMS from one of those 2 distributors, IF Scheid is an authorized re-seller of BMS.
4) DAP knew good and well that they were misrepresenting injectors, thats why Bosch made them cease and desist.
5) DAP knew good and well they were sending the wrong injectors, and charging people for new injectors and sending them crap.

Your story does prove that the dishonesty and fraud is rampant in the industry though. Too many people out to screw people over, and too many vendors pointing the finger elsewhere and refusing to accept any responsibility, or tell the truth.

To this day, DAP is still wording things just right, to avoid the truth on the 007 injector. They are STILL selling it as a brand new common rail that "fits" an 03 - 04. They fact they bought these injectors in the first place, shows how underhanded they are. Why would you buy a bunch of injectors for an application you dont even list on your site... unless your trying to defraud people and flip them to people unknowingly.

I can tell you right now... if I have to buy injectors, it will be straight from Bosch, or from Exergy. The little extra cost, will be worth not having to worry about dealing with crooks, and knowing I git the real parts that I ordered.
 
#37 ·
This isnt "your situation", and what happened to you, did not happen here. No one is trying to "figure out what happened". The proof is there. I dont want to argue about it. You evidently are not aware of what this person/company has done. Anyone making any excuses for them, is just ridiculous. But to address your concern:

Someone sent me a link to this thread.

WOW--- So much misinformation! A lot of it is good info and good questions. I will not directly call out people who have tried to be helpful but are in absolute error. I will put out the truth below:


1) Selling new with core does not mean that they are reman. (Correlation does not = causality)
2) Many places sell NEW injectors at an additional discount to gain access to a core for rebuilding purposes. If you want to keep your old injectors there is no problem.
3) Certain part #'s are restricted from being advertised and sold by BOSCH to protect companies with territories and contracts with Bosch.
4) Bosch NEW part # starts with 0445120xxx for an injector. 0986453xxx designates a reman part # for a common rail injector
5) Bosch is very picky about using part #'s online and asks internet sellers who are not under some specific contracts to change the description or part # (as we use "OE" for genuine Bosch)
6) Bosch even goes as far as to request some places to alter images so there is no Bosch logo on parts


Regarding DAP
1) If I say DAP is selling Genuine OE, Genuine Bosch, New BOSCH, Modified Bosch built from NEW. etc then they are what I say. Those who have purchased from us are welcome to speak up regarding their experience.
2) I have hundreds of injectors on the shelf: NEW Bosch, Reman by Bosch, and 3rd party remans that we can alter or modify parts for performance.
3) DAP has Common Rail injector test stand to verify and aid in calibrating injectors or test in house.
4) I feel strongly that people should not have to pay high mark ups to buy the same quality product just because they need to pay for a lot of sponsorships and magazine advertisements. If you choose to spend your money that way it is your choice. DAP hopes to bring value and we have a good record of doing that for our customers.
Now go back and see what Bosch said about DAP in the first post in this thread. Nuff said
 
  • Like
Reactions: tryNto and ArNy32
Top