Stock Injectors Destroying Engines?

[Dudge]

Originally Posted by triton

Dude, you better recheck your info. NO ONE gets blessings from Bosch which is why none rebuild injectors. The most any can do is pull them apart ( and only so far ) for cleaning. Those companies you mentioned are doing custom tips and minor cleanings.

The only way to flow test a injector is to NOT be a authorized Bosch service center. Garmons machine is cool and will do so much but, that's only because he's not a Bosch service center as the others aren't.

x2. DonM is the only magician that I know of with a "blessing". Last I heard it was a mystery how he was able to get Bosch parts when no one else ever could, and I mean no one. If I remember correct there was quite a heated debate on the subject.

__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 - It's broken.

[bobinyelm]

Are we saying that NO ONE except Garmons actually TESTS the injectors (used or rebuilt ones) at pressures like they see in service to see if they leak or atomize correctly?

Even Bosch can't flow-test injectors they rebuild?

Bob

[Dudge]

Originally Posted by bobinyelm

Are we saying that NO ONE except Garmons actually TESTS the injectors (used or rebuilt ones) at pressures like they see in service to see if they leak or atomize correctly?

Even Bosch can't flow-test injectors they rebuild?

Bob

No. I don't know the details of Garmon's machine, but there are other companies who can test injectors. Don M @ F1 can and Wesley (RAW Diesel) told me Northeast Diesel can check them as well.

__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 - It's broken.

[bobinyelm]

We have an outfit named M+D Distributing hereabouts with several locations. Some locations (like Dallas) can do spray pattern observations, some (like their Houston branch) can also do injector flow checks, but none can actually apply anything close to the pressures that they actually operate under, I understand.

If true, such testing at lower pressures would not appear to be able to detect leaking that might occur at 22,000 psi if I understand things properly?

I am not sure what pressure they test at, but is ANY lower-pressure test good enough to detect problems at higher pressures that could destroy an engine?

I am just trying to make sure that I don't install injectors that appear to work perfectly (as they did in my old engine), but which would cost me another motor.

Bob

[Whiskey Tango]

Originally Posted by triton

If you insist.... it's a trans cooler

I removed my auxiliary cooler and replaced it with that

If you ask.... you'll receive

__________________
04 2500 4x4 325HO 48re LB QC Leveling kit with 315's

[Freeride202]

I will answers some of the question posted here.

First off, yes there are only reman injectors for the 5.9L engine available through Bosch. We stopped seeing new injectors about a year ago. The only injector bodies that appear to be stainless steel are 6.7L injectors. There are aftermarket companies rebuilding these injectors as well including Cummins, Mopar, and some fuel shops. Parts are not supplied by Bosch to fuel injection shops for rebuilding but there are several aftermarket companies making internal parts and gasket kits to rebuild them.

Just a few words about injector failures. The most common failure is the internal ball seat eroding causing high return leakage and hard starting. The next most common is over fueling which is usually caused by a warn nozzle. This allows fuel to enter the cylinder continuously which can lead to white smoke at idle and engine damage.

Filtration. The stock dodge/cummins filter originally was 10 micron and then updated to 7 micron. Only recently has the 6.7L filter been improved to 5 micron. The problem is that Bosch recommends 3 micron filtration for common rail injection systems. This isn't a Bosch Service Dealer's recommendation this is directly from Bosch Corp.

How do you know you have one or more bad injectors? Well there is no easy answer to this one. You should start to be concerned when you have a drivability issue. Aside for that yes mileage is a good factor as well. The whole idea that an injector should last the life of your engine is a myth that has only recently have people believed do to the cost of electronic injectors. The truth is that automotive injectors have serious wear and are reaching the end of their service life around 160,000 miles. I'm not saying that at 160,001 miles all your injector will stop working but they are becoming very inefficient and can lead to engine failure. This is true for all automotive injectors PowerStroke, Duramax, Cummins or TDI it doesn't matter.

Testing the injectors. In our shop we use the Chrysler scan tools and have a common rail test bench. Any tests in the engine for diagnosing injector issues are very limited. The scanner tells you next to nothing about the over all condition of your injectors and only gives a balance at idle RPM. Flow testing the injector in a bench can find issues at different engine loads that are impossible for a Dodge dealer to find.

Remember this the number one cause of diesel engine failures are the injectors.

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January 1, 2010 all diesel sold in British Columbia will start to contain 3% Biodiesel.

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Last edited by Freeride202 : 11-06-2009 at 02:16 AM.

[Dudge]

Originally Posted by bobinyelm

We have an outfit named M+D Distributing hereabouts with several locations. Some locations (like Dallas) can do spray pattern observations, some (like their Houston branch) can also do injector flow checks, but none can actually apply anything close to the pressures that they actually operate under, I understand.

If true, such testing at lower pressures would not appear to be able to detect leaking that might occur at 22,000 psi if I understand things properly?

I am not sure what pressure they test at, but is ANY lower-pressure test good enough to detect problems at higher pressures that could destroy an engine?

I am just trying to make sure that I don't install injectors that appear to work perfectly (as they did in my old engine), but which would cost me another motor.

Bob

injectorsecho

There ya go chief. That explains the testing process at F1, which if I was guessing is the most detailed testing done.

__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 - It's broken.

[triton]

you guys might enjoy this video. I took it at Garmon's shop. If you ever wondered why injectors go out.... take a look at what they're doing in you engine. This test only went up to 23K. Many of us run them much higher than that.

Only NON authorized Bosch service centers aren't able to do flow tests or tests like this. Bosch doesn't want to info found to get out for some reason. Very few out there could afford one of these machine which is why many don't do testing.

CR injector test - Car Videos on StreetFire

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www.BlackPatchDiesel.com
Garmon Diesel / Airwerks / High Tech Turbo
AirDog / Glacier Diesel / NADM

[ILSix]

Originally Posted by Dudge

x2. DonM is the only magician that I know of with a "blessing". Last I heard it was a mystery how he was able to get Bosch parts when no one else ever could, and I mean no one. If I remember correct there was quite a heated debate on the subject.

"Exergy Engineering" provides services others have touched upon on here and more.

[cerberusiam]

Originally Posted by bobinyelm

Are we saying that NO ONE except Garmons actually TESTS the injectors (used or rebuilt ones) at pressures like they see in service to see if they leak or atomize correctly?

Even Bosch can't flow-test injectors they rebuild?

Bob

No on all accounts.All the premier injector shops have a test machine to verify the rebuild. Certain parts are available, others aren't. some claim to have a source for the parts, others say its BS.

There are other suppliers of the critical parts but most agree the quality is suspect.

Believe what you want, but, call II and others and see what they have to say before jumping on the rumor wagon. Bosch has pooched the CR injector rebuild stuff so bad from their end it is comical.

__________________
05 QC LWB 4x4 Auto 3.73 LSD Smarty, Quad Boost Fooler, Isspro Gauges FP-EGT-Boost-DP-Trans-RP, Built 48RE
1992 D250 47RH Built pump 370 Marine Tips

[bobinyelm]

Originally Posted by cerberusiam

No on all accounts.All the premier injector shops have a test machine to verify the rebuild. Certain parts are available, others aren't. some claim to have a source for the parts, others say its BS.

There are other suppliers of the critical parts but most agree the quality is suspect.

Believe what you want, but, call II and others and see what they have to say before jumping on the rumor wagon. Bosch has pooched the CR injector rebuild stuff so bad from their end it is comical.

I have not yet found a shop to test my injectors at operating pressures. You imply they exist-do you know of any?

Maybe w/ 110k on mine they are not worth checking, and should just be replaced as the Bosch distributor said, but I'd sure like to know that whatever I buy will hold up in service given that my engine cratered totally w/ only 109k while still running perfectly well (but making blow-by).

Blow-by is a bad symptom to use to diagnose, because by then the engine is toast. Kind of like waiting for a massive heart attack before realizing that your cholesterol is a bit high.

I must admit I am STILL confused as to what stock injectors to buy.

Genuine Bosch remans from Bosch distributors at $400 a pop, or remans from independents for $300 or so who may or may not get theirs from Bosch.

I guess paying $600 MORE a set for "Genuine" Bosch rebuilt is buying peace of mind that it was done right? (The Bosch distributors said that Bosch does NOT test their rebuilt injectors at anything near real-world operating pressures, however).

Bob

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Last edited by bobinyelm : 11-06-2009 at 11:13 PM.

[cerberusiam]

I have not yet found a shop to test my injectors at operating pressures. You imply they exist-do you know of any?

Industrial Injection tells me they have the machine and can test them. Did not go into what their test procedures consist of.

II quoted me $450 per for a Bosch reman and 60 HP tip, and, (at the risk of spreading gossip as this is totally unsubstantiated) claims the Bosch reman injector number is actually a new injector because Bosch themselves have not settled on what protocol to use for testing rebuilds and some of their rebuilds were a total failure. Kinda makes you wonder about Bosch saying there are no new injectors available and they are all remans.

Been a couple incidents of supposed Bosch remans failing almost immediately and when they were tore apart the parts were pretty shoddy. Apparently there some knockoffs coming out Juarez Mexico that may or may not be official.

I hear some of the same type of stories from other rebuilders and they are all shaking their heads and wondering whats up with Bosch after all the promises for the last 3 years or so. Don't know if we will ever get the true story. About all you can do is buy from somebody that will stand behind the injectors if something goes wrong. Sound slike its a crap shoot no matter what you do.

I am going to pick somebody I THINK is reliable and hope it works.

Good luck.

__________________
05 QC LWB 4x4 Auto 3.73 LSD Smarty, Quad Boost Fooler, Isspro Gauges FP-EGT-Boost-DP-Trans-RP, Built 48RE
1992 D250 47RH Built pump 370 Marine Tips