Wastegate

[OJack]

I need some education on wastegates. I guess my question is rather simple, do I need one? My truck is used to pull my camp trailer up and down the mountains here in Montana. As you can see in my sig, I've done the deletes, so do I need to add a wastegate now? Any insight would be appreciated, thanks.

[Alabama Mud Machine]

If you like to keep your headgasket intact, I'd recommend either a wastegate & headstuds, or headstuds and an aftermarket turbo (Industrial Injection Silver Bullet 66).

The reason being is that our factory turbo builds too much drive pressure if you start installing alot of power-adders. And it will blow your HG if you're not careful.

Also, if you're pulling alot, I'd recommend the studs and wastegate. Towing puts more stress on the engine, therefor increasing drive pressure....which will pop your HG. It's just preventative maintenance, in my opinion.

I haven't gotten one yet b/c I haven't had any money...but I do plan on getting one soon.

You can get one from James @ Rollin Smoke Diesel. My buddy Buck who owns/operates Black Ops Diesel makes wastegates and they rock!!! They're pretty reasonably priced too.

There's a link to James' site in my signature. Just holler at him and he can hook you up with whatever you need.

[Snofarmer]

I too tow my 24ft TT all over the mt. passes when I go out west every year.

The short answer is no you will not unless you are running some advanced timing setting.

The drive pressure blowing GH's is a myth.

To much back pressure and you truck will die kind of like when you stick a potato in a tail pipe if it is not shot out, it dies.

Timing is the culprit for a blown hg.

[Flopster843]

Head studs will save a gasket more than a waste gate. With that being said, a waste gate will improve the efficiency of the truck by dropping drive pressure. There are several threads where this is discussed in detail if you want to know more.

[rbmedic75]

well there are a lot of myths out there fortunately this is NOT one of them. it has proven itself time after time after time. Fact we went from getting multiple blown headgaskets threads a week to 2 that I have seen in the last 2 months or so (and I am on here everyday) Fact guys were still blowing Headgaskets with a $1100 set of ARP head studs in fact blowing multiple gaskets in under 3000 miles that have since the wastegate kit was installed has tore up 3 or 4 tranny's popped a freeze plug out of the head and run the piss out of the trck but has stopped his headgasket problems. DP and sticcking a potatoe up your tail pipe is true on a naturally aspirated engine not so much on a turbo. Drive pressure also like said robbs power and torque. So to answer your questions the EWG kits are $500 or so a headgasket repair is around 1500-2000 your running the smarty jr so if your using the lower tunes your safer than running smarty sr with like SW 9 but your towing in the mountains and are going to make high EGT's. High egt's mean hotter gasses, hotter gasses are going to expand greater and faster thus causing higher DP faster, if you want to know for sure take a regualr boost gauge and hook it up to some copper tubing and screw it in to where your EGT (pyro probe) is this will tell you what you DP are running 60lbs is what we have considered the safe threshold. Yes you will see 60 lbs + with the EB when it is functioning BUT your not making power during this time and have minimal fuel spraying plus low EGT's which remove the other 2 parts of the danger equation. will DP alone pop your gasket NOPE never will combine it with advanced timing, added fuel, higher EGT's and eventually yep the DP is gonna be the STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMELS BACK. I know $500 is a chunk of cash for the most of us but it is the cheapest insurance and piece of mind we have got to date for the issue. I can go on for hours as to why and how the EWG kits work and prove my theory but some just have made up their mind which is fine (i have the part numbers for your gasket saved on my PC) just kidding guys. But seriously hook up a Boost gauge and see what your pressures are that will tell you for sure. If I were a betting man I would bet you will be surprised as to how high they really are while towing on a herd pull

[Alabama Mud Machine]

Thanks for the back up Buck.

Oh, and call me when you get a chance on my work number. We need to discuss the long-arm kit.

[Maddram]

I like to think of it as cheap insurance...I'm running a Glacier Diesel StreetGate and its a Tial wastegate...plus Rich is great to deal with

[Snofarmer]

Originally Posted by Hamilton Cams

Wow, a lot of good discussion n head gaskets and drive pressure. A few points.

Egr adds an inert gas to the mix which greatly reduces the burn rate of the fuel. If the fuel/air mixture exceeds I believe around 2500 degrees in the cylinder then oxides of nitrogen form in the cylinder which makes acid rain. The OE's have been implementing a few things to reduce NOx for a few years. Reduced timing first and foremost, Larger piston cooling jets, restrictive turbine housings which combined with overlap gives a bit of in cylinder egr at higher boost pressures, and now full fledged egr. A few problems arise from cooling the combustion process. Less hp less fuel economy and an incomplete burn which produces more carbon out of the tail pipe. This brings about the need for DPF's to fix that problem.

Narrrow Lobe separation angles can provide more of an in cylinder EGR if there is a lot of overlap but because of the small profiles there is not as much in cylinder EGR from overlap on the 03 to 07 5.9 as there is on the 6.7l. Although they have more or less the same profile the 6.7l have much more displacement and a more restrictive tubine housing on the vgt this creates much more DP.
Although drive pressure does not create more cylinder pressure directly on the compression stroke on a stock engine. On a modded engine where the stock vgt turbine section cannot handle the excess pressure, if stock springs are employed after about 55ish psi reversion starts to happen which floods the cylinder with exhaust gasses as boost is entering the cylinder. Unlike the boost which stops when the cam closes the valve, reversion will only stop when the pressure caused from the upward travel of the piston exceeds the drive pressure in the exhaust manifold. This can create much higher in cylinder pressures and greatly hampered combustion processes from the excess inert gasses. Another factor is that pressure x surface area = force. This acts on the piston with more negative affects than the 5.9l but it also has a much greater surface area to push on the head. Even with equal cylinder pressure the 6.7l has much more force acting on the head. This makes wastegates necessary for performance applications and puts an emphasis on mods that increase flow while not increasing pressure. Intercoolers, better intake profiles, porting etc. On the exhaust side of things the drive pressure will spike sooner and higher with a performance cam. This happens from two reasons. First the exhaust opens a few degrees sooner. This is ok because hopefully at this point you have gotten rid of the egr which slows combustion and you have used a tuner that advances timing which in turn promotes faster combustion. the burn process is finished sooner and the exhaust is ready to be expelled sooners.
Second, the pressure rises in the exhaust faster, because the exhaust valves is less of a restriction since it is opened faster and higher, and the exhaust can leave the cylinder faster. This is goood because the exhast opening is less of a restriction to flow which robs less power from the piston and rotating assembly in the form of parasitic loss, and because it aids in spooling the charger better. It also creates another reason to have an external wastegate, more exhaust flow. On my 6.7l I use a 45mm turbosmart from majestic turbo and a 66/71 16 s300 that is non gated. Boost never goes above 48psi even at 4k and my drive pressures are never a problem.

On the math side of the equation there is exactly 299.xxft/lbs of work retarding the engine for every 10psi excess drive pressure. Math is right on. As someone said that is work on Linear piston travel not crankshaft rotating force which are two totally different things. I am looking for a way to convert linear piston motion into rotating force. THis is the best discussion I have seen to date on drive pressure. Keep it up.

Zach Hamilton

,,,,,,,

No one said in a heavily modded truck where the timing has been changed that a wast-gate is not necessary,
This is not the case here.

Still timing is the biggest culprit for a blown HG, so is overheating, not Deleting the egr or dpf.

[rbmedic75]

correct a heavily modded truck has greater potential to pop a gasket but in the several polls we have had on here and the many guys I have talked with we have seen to many trucks running basically stock with the deletes and as low as a 60 HP tune pop the gasket. I am sure we will agree that a popped gasket whether on a heavily modded truck or a stocker is still a popped gasket and sucks the same. as for deleting the EGR and cooler most definatley absolutely possitively has a drastic effect of increasing Drive pressures and here is how. when the EGR system is opperating fully it opens and recirculates the exhaust gasses back into the intake side of the engine inherently sucking the exhaust into "out of the exhaust manifold" back around to the intake side reduces the DP and the amount of exhaust gasses the turbo has to evacuate. Problem is no one likes rebreathing our own farts, well our engines do not either which is what recirculating the exhaust is equivalent to. So EGR system in tact high DP does not exist becasue it gets pulled into the intake side (hot trashy sooty already burnt air kinda like driving a ford) instead of the nice fresh cooler "oxygen dense air that the intercooler supplies and the engine should be breathing.

Now delete the EGR system and plug that escape route up and what happens, the approx 2.5" exhaust outlet on the turbo is forced to try and keep up with all the exhaust instead of sharing it with the egr system. the turbo was never intended to flow that much exhaust (stupidyep but it is what it is.) so the EWG kit tap into the exhaust manifold where the EGR cooler used to be and allows for a bypass of the exhaust pressures when the reach a predetermined point around the turbo and out the tail pipe where cummins should have piped them to begin with.

As for DP not being in part responsible for HG pops, for every 10 lbs of DP you are running over boost pressure is an excess of 255lbs of cylibder pressure, do the math not to mention the super heated gasses that are bleeding back in under open exhasut valves and contaminating the cylinder air. Every one will continue to have thier thoughts which is cool, I have I do and I will believe in the EWG kits, I have personally seen the difference and drive a EWG equipped 6.7 every day. Timing yep it is a BIG factor but it is also a needed factor to get better MPG and more HP out of our trucks "called a desirable effect" high DP is an unwanted byproduct after our turbo is spooled.

DP is what spools our turbo up hense the fact the 6.7 will OUT SPOOL a 5.9 with the same turbo all day long but after the turbo is spooled it is harmful and detrimental to further performance/towing/playing/daily driving. put a 2 1/2 inch exhaust on yor truck and see the losses higher EGT's whole nine yards, same principal

example one relatively stock daily tower on here lowered his EGT's by 200-250* with no changes but a EWG kit

told ya I could go on all day to all

[rbmedic75]

Originally Posted by Snofarmer

,,,,,,,

No one said in a heavily modded truck where the timing has been changed that a wast-gate is not necessary,
This is not the case here.

Still timing is the biggest culprit for a blown HG, so is overheating, not Deleting the egr or dpf.

Read the rest of Zack's article the numbers and proof are right there starting at the end of what was put in bold print. Please dont take 1 sentence to try and prove a point take the whole article, his point is DP blows headgaskets the end. better yet click on the little arrow beside of the hamilton name in the quoted post and read the thread a LOT of very inteligent reading by some very smart guys debating it

Bottom Line is you will not know for sure if you need a EWG unless you hook up a DP gauge and a simple boost gauge with metal tubing can be used look at the HP and TRQ numbers that you are loosing for gosh sakes.

[neeltburn]

So I need to cancel our vacation plans, I have a 07 6.7 deleted with smarty jr. (running 40 hp Stock Timing and TQ stock) I am going to pull our toyhauler to the Smoky Mountain this Saturday. If I read what you all are saying is that I WILL blow my h/g? I don't have time or fund at the moment to put a EGW on it. So is it not safe to pull it 400miles one way?

[ksseabrd]

Originally Posted by neeltburn

So I need to cancel our vacation plans, I have a 07 6.7 deleted with smarty jr. (running 40 hp Stock Timing and TQ stock) I am going to pull our toyhauler to the Smoky Mountain this Saturday. If I read what you all are saying is that I WILL blow my h/g? I don't have time or fund at the moment to put a EGW on it. So is it not safe to pull it 400miles one way?

I don't think anyone is saying that. A 40hp tune is not very aggressive, you should be fine for that trip.

I wouldn't go trying to run 80 mph up the mountians, but normal driving, you should be fine.

How you have treated the truck before now is a big factor to.