i want to get a programmer and be safe under warranty

[pwr2tow]

Originally Posted by Utahguyiam

Sorry, but you're flagrantly wrong. Unreasonable use clearly means unreasonable USE, not bolting on a product that has minimal if any impact on the primary function of the warranted part.

It has already been determined in court that modifying the suspension of a vehicle cannot void any part of the warranty OTHER than the suspension unless the warrantor can prove the damage (for example, if you put a lift and 44 inch tires on a 4 cylinder tacoma, they probably could show mathmatically that the forces required to turn those tires are far outside the capability of the motor and transmission and void your warranty on those items, but they'd still be bound to their warranty coverage on anything electrical, etc.)

I think maybe you need to do some research into why Moss-Magnuson was created.. It was targeted specifically at your post. Ford was denying warranty coverage for things like replacing the stock radio, claiming that extra power from the radio could cause massive electrical failures throughout their vehicles, and after a high profile court case, Congress was motivated to take corrective action.

Unreasonable use means your socket set isn't warranted if you use the ratchet as a hammer, but you're claiming it means that craftsman could say your warranty is void because you used a snap on socket with your craftsman ratchet.

and changeing engine parameters that run 350 Hp to 500 Hp is not abuse. We are talking programmers here you know. That restricts/voids warranty for the engine and drivetrain. How is Ram/Fiat to know how much or little you actually used and really why would they care at that point because you altered it and that's all they have to prove in the courts eye.

You quivel and split hairs all you want with the rest of the warranty.

If your so right where are all the ambulance chaseing type lawyers defending an obvious flagrent violation of the law that they could cash in on rather simply.

[Utahguyiam]

Originally Posted by pwr2tow

and changeing engine parameters that run 350 Hp to 500 Hp is not abuse. We are talking programmers here you know. That restricts/voids warranty for the engine and drivetrain. How is Ram/Fiat to know how much or little you actually used and really why would they care at that point because you altered it and that's all they have to prove in the courts eye.

You quivel and split hairs all you want with the rest of the warranty.

If your so right where are all the ambulance chaseing type lawyers defending an obvious flagrent violation of the law that they could cash in on rather simply.

Dodge can see every parameter that was changed, so they can very clearly/easily see what was changed by your programmer.

As for the ambulance chasing lawyers, we all know that modders/tuners are a ridiculously small minority, and only a small minority of them are likely to ever have an issue that should be covered, so it's unlikely that there's really easy money in it. Additionally, if you threaten Chrysler with litigation in a way that shows them you're serious, they're going to fold, just like they did in my case. If they know they can't go before a judge and defend their actions, they won't try.

[N1NJ4ON3R]

Unpluging the egr is easy brown plug on top of the intake horn.

[pwr2tow]

Originally Posted by Utahguyiam

Dodge can see every parameter that was changed, so they can very clearly/easily see what was changed by your programmer.

And that's exactly what we are talking about. Change anything from original design not only restricts warranty it voids it.

Easy for you to come on the internet and give shoddy advice when your not fitting the bills. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when somebody takes your advice and ends up on the short end of the stick make up the difference. After all you should be held accountable for your advice.

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

Originally Posted by Utahguyiam

Haha, I'd do that, but I always worry about throwing a new code with no idea and hurting something else.

Why worry? The Magnusson-Moss warranty act should be able to get Chrysler to clean up the mess correct? ...

[Snofarmer]

Originally Posted by Utahguyiam

Haha, I'd do that, but I always worry about throwing a new code with no idea and hurting something else.

Don't be to concerned over it.
IF, if you have a real problem the truck will act up or the over head will chime, the lighting bolt will light up and you can read them(codes) yourself now and then.

I never think about it.

It's easy to play dumb when the only codes are for the emissions and the dealer is use to seeing them.
Just say the light comes on now and then but it goes off on it's own.

[Utahguyiam]

Originally Posted by pwr2tow

And that's exactly what we are talking about. Change anything from original design not only restricts warranty it voids it.

Easy for you to come on the internet and give shoddy advice when your not fitting the bills. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when somebody takes your advice and ends up on the short end of the stick make up the difference. After all you should be held accountable for your advice.

No, changing anything from original does NOT void the warranty. Moss Magnuson is VERY specific about that.

As for my "shoddy advice", the only advice I've given is to proceed with caution. I said very specifically if you don't want to have to fight for your rights, don't put a tuner on your truck. However, the simple act of putting a tuner on your truck does not and can not automatically void your warranty. That's just what Chrysler tells you because it protects THEIR financial interests, and they know that most people will never press the issue.

There is no precedent for them to deny warranty coverage, because it has never gone to court and resulted in a win for them. If it had, you can bet we would know about it. However, there are COUNTLESS stories of people who got denied, kept trying, and eventually found the right words, contacted the right person, or had an attorney get involved, and ultimately found Chrysler "making a customer service gesture" to correct their issues.

I'm one of those people. Do you really think Chrysler denied my 15k claim, only to change their mind because they're good people? Absolutely not. My attorney contacted them with a timeline of my attempts to correct the problem, a specific breakdown of what happened (as we know it), and a written opinion from an independent diesel specialist as to how unlikely it was that my problems were caused by a maintenance issue, and within 2 days, Chrysler gave up the fight.

You do have rights, and most major corporations/manufacturers will go out of their way to trample your rights with a minimal amount of justification. However, those same manufacturers aren't going to step into a court room over a fight they won't win. The moss magnusen act is VERY simple, and very direct. It's initial intent was to STOP the manufacturers from denying warranty claims for issues unrelated to the problem, yet you've fought me for 4 pages now claiming that it's what protects them when they want to make a sweeping denial without showing causation. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

I'd love to know how many "restricted" people have ever even spoken to a regional rep to plead their case, let alone contacting an attorney, the BBB, FTC, or their state's attorney general to inquire from an official entity about the legality of Chrysler's actions. I'll bet you that the vast majority of people who had problems that couldn't be directly traced to their mods WOULD have found a resolution by taking those steps.

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

Has anybody that has had there warranty restricted won with this Magnuson-Moss warranty act? You would think we would hear about that also??

[Utahguyiam]

Originally Posted by UNDER-PRESSURE

Why worry? The Magnusson-Moss warranty act should be able to get Chrysler to clean up the mess correct? ...

1. No, moss magnuson does not cover ignored problems. If your low oil pressure warning comes on because your oil pump quits, and you just drive it till the motor blows up, there's a good chance your warranty will be denied, and the manufacturer would be justified in doing so. THAT would fall under abuse.

2. I don't have a bumper to bumper warranty, just a motor warranty, so even if item 1 wasn't true, I still need to be careful about non-warranted issues.

Nice attempt at the flame though.

[Utahguyiam]

Originally Posted by UNDER-PRESSURE

Has anybody that has had there warranty restricted won with this Magnuson-Moss warranty act? You would think we would hear about that also??

I DID.

And if you mean a court case, again, I'd guess the answer is no, because like I said, Chrysler will step in and do the work as a "customer service gesture" to avoid a lawsuit they can't win.

[UNDER-PRESSURE]

Originally Posted by Utahguyiam

1. No, moss magnuson does not cover ignored problems. If your low oil pressure warning comes on because your oil pump quits, and you just drive it till the motor blows up, there's a good chance your warranty will be denied, and the manufacturer would be justified in doing so. THAT would fall under abuse.

2. I don't have a bumper to bumper warranty, just a motor warranty, so even if item 1 wasn't true, I still need to be careful about non-warranted issues.

Nice attempt at the flame though.

Why not just play stupid as advised? What warranty repairs should that not cover? Is there a list of morally acceptable & potentially fraudulent warranty claims this Cummins community finds acceptable?

[Utahguyiam]

Originally Posted by UNDER-PRESSURE

Why not just play stupid as advised? What warranty repairs should that not cover? Is there a list of morally acceptable & potentially fraudulent warranty claims this Cummins community finds acceptable?

1. I never advised playing stupid. Not only that, but there is no defense to allowing a CEL to go unchecked for weeks or months. This is the problem I have with allowing a persistent CEL. I don't want to run the risk of forgetting to check codes for a few weeks and damaging something because another CEL triggered and I didn't have any way to know it.

2. I've NEVER advocated fraudulent warranty claims. It's not fraudulent if someone who's truck is deleted has a defective injector or something else. I'm not talking about running a hot tune, then making a warranty claim when you blow the head gasket. You wouldn't win that case in court, because Chrysler COULD show that the tuning contributed to the damage.

I'm only stating that Chrysler can't legally deny warranty coverage unless they can specifically explain how your modifications caused the damage you're attempting to explain. A blanket rejection because there's some scenario in which something you didn't actually do MIGHT have caused damage isn't sufficient for them to deny warranty.

Chrysler has the ability to evaluate every parameter of the computer system. If you changed the fueling parameters, and a problem was caused by something relating to fueling, they'll be justified in denying your warranty. However, an "unauthorized" flash that didn't change fueling parameters is not sufficient cause to deny warranty for issues caused by fueling, just as an example.